Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Justinian2]

Ah yes, OT3. Have you read OT3 yet, Justinian? If not, be careful, you might get all kinds of horrible diseases according to LRH. From Karin Spaink's page the first paragraph of OT3:

Originally Posted by Chris L
Yeah, an origin myth that involves galactic overlords and volcanoes will tend to make a religion look a bit like bad science fiction.
Ah yes, OT3. Have you read OT3 yet, Justinian? If not, be careful, you might get all kinds of horrible diseases according to LRH. From Karin Spaink's page the first paragraph of OT3:

Refers to:

The head of the Galactic Federation (76 planets around larger stars visible from here) (founded 95,000,000 years ago, very space opera) solved overpopulation (250 billion or so per planet, 178 billion on average) by mass implanting. He caused people to be brought to Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H-Bomb on the principal volcanos (Incident II) and then the Pacific area ones were taken in boxes to Hawaii and the Atlantic area ones to Las Palmas and there "packaged".

His name was Xenu.

Sounds more like the future of earth than the past.

If there are billions of habitable planets out there, I sure something like this has happened.

Earth as already had Hitler and hundreds of other Tyrants. Genghis Khan was a biggie.

LRH didn't want to run narratives of tyrants, so perhaps he produced a surrogate incident to run.

 

[AdMan]

LRH didn't want to run narratives of tyrants, so perhaps he produced a surrogate incident to run.

No, he produced a rather silly sci-fi story which he used to create a cult.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

So I only got low-level auditing. Seems to me that once LRH realized he'd given the blueprint on how to audit, he realized there'd be no money in it beyond selling the book Dianetics.

So of course, you need "professional" auditing, which costs you money. Look, I'm an open-minded guy, and if there is some newer form of auditing, I'd be more than happy to read about it. I'd like to see just why THAT form of auditing is more efficient.

And again, please stop the fallacy of how many pages and how heavy the book is. It really means nothing. The book could be the greatest thing ever, but that has nothing to do with how many pages it is, or how much it weighs.

 

[ddt]

Sounds more like the future of earth than the past.

No really, it's the past. Elron writes it again later in OT3:

In December 1967 I knew someone had to take the plunge. I did and emerged very knocked out, but alive. Probably the only one ever to do so in 75,000,000 years. I have all the data now, but only that given here is needful.

And where else would you think do all those thetans come from?

Be careful you don't catch pneumonia now!

 

[Sherkeu]

Isn't the idea to get the whole planet "clear" and to the ideal state? If it was soooo important, surely the Freezone members would simply dedicate as much time as they could spare and ask for donations if people could afford it.

Many churches and organizations run on just donations. The "pay for the next level" part is such a con. Wouldn't donations be better? Or can poor people not get to ideal state?

And why are scientologists so obsessed with everyone being criminals and out to get them? It's seems like a cult of excessive paranoia.

I really would like to know!! Thanks!

It seems my questions were somehow skipped over...so here they are again!

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I would like to tell the felonious government of Florida what a scam the entire timeshare industry is. You pay $80,000 for a couple of timeshares that can't be sold. Try to sell and you pay another group of scam artists $1500 to sell and they wind up getting you a few hundred and conveying them to another felon that will do the necessary paperwork to take them for free - or just take your $1500 and run.

I would think that I was better than the other sheep/citizens of this country in that I want to improve things. Most people just go baaaaaah, like the sheep they are.

If you and/or your friends really had power over MEST you would not have bought timeshare property without doing your homework. And, before you say it was not you that did the buying, I'll point out that, that if you had power over MEST, it would be obvious to your friends and relatives that you did and they would continually turn to you for advice and assistance before the fact -- not after.

My SP/Squirrel advice to anyone thinking of being conned into buying timeshare property is to do at least a modicum of research first. There may well be some timeshares actually worth buying. I have friends that have bought and claim to be satisfied. However, as a child I read Aesop's The Fox Who Lost his Tail and its message has guided me since.

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of your local government but other people also have such opinions too and they try to do something to make changes. With or without the power over MEST, you can use the mechanisms within your Constitution to effect change -- up to forming a new political party.

Your beliefs with respect to Scientology as expressed in this forum are exactly the same as all other True Believers in all crap movements, religions and cults.

LRon was a crazy psychotic who possibly ended up believing the nonsense he spewed in his lifetime. But it is nonsense none the less.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" for he is the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz.

 

[Justinian2]

Ah yes, OT3. Have you read OT3 yet, Justinian? If not, be careful, you might get all kinds of horrible diseases according to LRH. From Karin Spaink's page the first paragraph of OT3:

So I only got low-level auditing. Seems to me that once LRH realized he'd given the blueprint on how to audit, he realized there'd be no money in it beyond selling the book Dianetics.

So of course, you need "professional" auditing, which costs you money. Look, I'm an open-minded guy, and if there is some newer form of auditing, I'd be more than happy to read about it. I'd like to see just why THAT form of auditing is more efficient.

And again, please stop the fallacy of how many pages and how heavy the book is. It really means nothing. The book could be the greatest thing ever, but that has nothing to do with how many pages it is, or how much it weighs.

When someone gives me one sentence to define Scientology, I want to show him how trivial it is. One does not compare a shovelfull of earth to a mountain. In case you haven't noticed, size does matter.

If we are talking about how rich Bill Gates is, I would point out that 1/1000th of his wealth is 50 million dollars and that 1/1000th the wealth of the guy with 50 million dollars is the $50 thousand dollar wealth of the average/medium citizen of the USA. Size does matter and we need to make some comparisons. But to say that one sentence, probably a joke, is the meaning of Scientology, we have to compare it to the official synopsis. What worthy skeptic would not hear both sides of an argument before rushing to judgment?

 

[InkBlotTest]

Right, I’ve now read the whole thread and it seems to boil down to …

A clear (not in a CoS sense) con man announced he was going to con people “You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion” and a bunch of “marks” fell for it.

And ….

Scientology is just like any other religion in that as soon there’s power and money to be had the in-fighting starts and you get breakaway groups - much like the Catholics and Protestants. When does the burnin’ and a-killin’ start? We haven’t had a good burning since 1789.

Next we’ll have someone say they are the only person that can truly decipher the “scriptures” – all seven hundred and blah pages of the 7 pound book.

IBT

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

When someone gives me one sentence to define Scientology, I want to show him how trivial it is. One does not compare a shovelfull of earth to a mountain. In case you haven't noticed, size does matter.

If we are talking about how rich Bill Gates is, I would point out that 1/1000th of his wealth is 50 million dollars and that 1/1000th the wealth of the guy with 50 million dollars is the $50 thousand dollar wealth of the average/medium citizen of the USA. Size does matter and we need to make some comparisons. But to say that one sentence, probably a joke, is the meaning of Scientology, we have to compare it to the official synopsis. What worthy skeptic would not hear both sides of an argument before rushing to judgment?

This is complete drivel. The Constitution of the United States as it was originally written was 4,618 words, including the signatures. Does that mean it is worthless? No. Does it mean that the book of Scientology is more important than the Constitution of the United States? Nope. The value of a book has NOTHING to do with how long it is. My 2 page manual on how to build a crib was infinitely more valuable to me than the 150 page "parenting for dummies" book was.

So your telling me if I can write a book that is 8 pouns, and 900 pages long, it's going to be more important than the book of Scientology. That's good to know.

 

[Justinian2]

Isn't the idea to get the whole planet "clear" and to the ideal state? If it was soooo important, surely the Freezone members would simply dedicate as much time as they could spare and ask for donations if people could afford it.

This is mission impossible for the Freezone. Our primary objective is with the first, second and third dynamics (ourselves, our family, and the Freezone and other groups to which we belong). A brick layer lays one brick at a time. A football team gets one down at a time. A baseball team gets one run at a time. Sure we care about the world, but we are realistic. Also the way we attain our goals matters too. If we don't exchange fairly with each and every person, then we aren't doing our job. The ends DON'T justify the means with the Freezone.

Many churches and organizations run on just donations. The "pay for the next level" part is such a con. Wouldn't donations be better? Or can poor people not get to ideal state?

Are you socialistic? There is a socialistic utopia like the American Indian had. There is a capitalistic utopia like colonial America had. And there is the present world mess. The Freezone runs on the capitalistic model of early America. People don't just contribute so that an unknown person will have auditing. However, by supporting a good auditor, we are keeping him available and practiced for you and others.

And why are scientologists so obsessed with everyone being criminals and out to get them? It's seems like a cult of excessive paranoia.

I don't believe that's the case. However, you don't walk into the tiger's cage at midnight without knowing that you will be eaten. Some may get a thrill feeding the tigers with their own flesh, but not me. It's intelligent to have fear at times.

 

[Sherkeu]

This is mission impossible for the Freezone. Our primary objective is with the first, second and third dynamics (ourselves, our family, and the Freezone and other groups to which we belong). A brick layer lays one brick at a time. A football team gets one down at a time. A baseball team gets one run at a time. Sure we care about the world, but we are realistic. Also the way we attain our goals matters too. If we don't exchange fairly with each and every person, then we aren't doing our job. The ends DON'T justify the means with the Freezone.

This does not address the question at all. Many other groups have ministries that spread a message for FREE. They get donations from persons who can afford it, if they have any cost to them at all. It is important to them that others hear the message and learn the tenets of their ideology. They also do it in steps. They will also counsel one-on-one and provide materials. What is so different about scientology that people have to pay? People who run soup kitchens or lead AA groups do not get paid. They do it because they want to help people.

Are you socialistic? There is a socialistic utopia like the American Indian had. There is a capitalistic utopia like colonial America had. And there is the present world mess. The Freezone runs on the capitalistic model of early America. People don't just contribute so that an unknown person will have auditing. However, by supporting a good auditor, we are keeping him available and practiced for you and others.

I am not a socialist. By far. What does that have to do with spreading your message? You mean you should run it like a business with profit margins and such? Is that for the greater good?

I don't believe that's the case. However, you don't walk into the tiger's cage at midnight without knowing that you will be eaten. Some may get a thrill feeding the tigers with their own flesh, but not me. It's intelligent to have fear at times.

If you live your life with a high level of fear of fellow humans, that is sad. Most people are good people. Some make mistakes and all of us are flawed but most of us are not out to get each other.

 

[marplots]

I am not an authority, but I will take a shot at answering anyhow.

Isn't the idea to get the whole planet "clear" and to the ideal state? If it was soooo important, surely the Freezone members would simply dedicate as much time as they could spare and ask for donations if people could afford it.

You are confusing the end goal with the method to obtain it. It is as if you would say, "Why build housing for the poor when the poor can just live in the construction equipment?" There is a lot of process standing between.

Many churches and organizations run on just donations. The "pay for the next level" part is such a con. Wouldn't donations be better? Or can poor people not get to ideal state?

Poor people can become well off enough to afford the training after they put into practice what they've already learned. Someone gave a personal example of just this happening already. I took out several student loans to get through college. If I had let money stand in my way, I'd never have gone.

And why are scientologists so obsessed with everyone being criminals and out to get them? It's seems like a cult of excessive paranoia.

There are people who react quite strongly, and quite negatively to Scientology. Granted, these are not "all" people, but it's enough for some Scientologists to hide their beliefs. I would replace "paranoia" (which is one of those cool words from psychology) with "realistic caution."

I really would like to know!! Thanks!

And now you do!!

Were your questions authentic or an example of rhetorical, leading questions to introduce controversy? If the latter, that would certainly add to the "realistic caution" wouldn't it?

 

[Justinian2]

It is often said, about many if not all of those systems, that what you get out of them depends on what you put into them. Do you think your personal tastes or personal affinity for the elements of the Scientology system might have affected your level of involvement and commitment, and might therefore be influencing your assessment of the results?

After all, one would not expect a Christian who attends church on Sunday mornings to get the same benefits from that system as an initiate living and working in a Christian fraternal order. But those lesser benefits might very well be sufficient for that person's needs -- and no one is asking for their boat, car, or trailer in exchange.
Many here have found skepticism sufficient for their needs. Is there something wrong with that? Perhaps they simply found skepticism more to their personal taste than you did, and/or were better at it than you were when you tried it and found it wanting.Respectfully,
Myriad

Doctors, lawyers and engineers get paid for their exchange. Should not other professionals, like professional scientology auditors, get paid as well? They have to study and practice for years to become good enough at their profession to get paid. They had a thing called co-auditing in the Church of Scientology. I co-audited a few times before realizing that a professional auditor was desirable if I wanted the proper end phenomena to the process.

As for skepticism as a method for spiritual gain, it depends on who the co-skeptics are. Like co-auditing, it would be best with professionals. When skepticism becomes bullying or nasty criticism, it is harmful.

 

[marplots]

This does not address the question at all. Many other groups have ministries that spread a message for FREE.

Here is some free stuff from Scientology. Please avail yourself of it.

http://www.scientologycourses.org/solutions.html

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Doctors, lawyers and engineers get paid for their exchange. Should not other professionals, like professional scientology auditors, get paid as well? They have to study and practice for years to become good enough at their profession to get paid. They had a thing called co-auditing in the Church of Scientology. I co-audited a few times before realizing that a professional auditor was desirable if I wanted the proper end phenomena to the process.

As for skepticism as a method for spiritual gain, it depends on who the co-skeptics are. Like co-auditing, it would be best with professionals. When skepticism becomes bullying or nasty criticism, it is harmful.

Doctors, Lawyers, and Engineers also don't set their businesses up as religions to be shielded from taxes. If it's a business, that's fine it's a business. But not a religion.

The whole "religion" thing is probably what gets you in such hot water. Businesses charge for services...religions don't.

 

[Sherkeu]

Were your questions authentic or an example of rhetorical, leading questions to introduce controversy? If the latter, that would certainly add to the "realistic caution" wouldn't it?

They are real questions, I assure you. I tend to think in terms of common sense and if I was running that group/religion I would do it entirely differently if the main goal was to spread the message and tech. If I wanted to make some money I might keep it the same. That's all. The goal vs the methods are confusing to me.

I'll respond to the rest later...

 

[Sherkeu]

Before going further I want to ask:

Do the freezoners consider Scientology a religion or a business that offers services? Would you expect to be tax exempt?

 

[Myriad]

As for skepticism as a method for spiritual gain, it depends on who the co-skeptics are. Like co-auditing, it would be best with professionals. When skepticism becomes bullying or nasty criticism, it is harmful.

That's an interesting point. I'd like to know more about this harmfulness. Can you provide a list of people harmed or allegedly harmed by skepticism, analogous to this list (or any of the other similar lists online) of people harmed or allegedly harmed by Scientology?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[ZirconBlue]

To be honest, it isn't entirely about the numbers though. Each Scientologist determines on their own whether they will stay or leave. They have the freedom to choose. The falling numbers at least demonstrate one thing -- this isn't some evil brainwashing cult that turns people into mindless followers.

They do not demonstrate that at all. Another possibility is that it is some evil brainwashing cult, but that the brainwashing doesn't have a 100% success rate.

 

[marplots]

They do not demonstrate that at all. Another possibility is that it is some evil brainwashing cult, but that the brainwashing doesn't have a 100% success rate.

That's a tough one to argue against. If you ask people in the "cult" and they tell you it's beneficial and not brainwashy, well, of course -- that's what someone who is brainwashed would say.

If members leave, that's only evidence the cult isn't as effective as it might be.

So those who stay are brainwashed and those who leave are not. Or, it could be the other way round. Those who leave have been brainwashed by critics and bad press and those who stay are not brainwashed but clearly see the benefits.

It's a nice set of hypotheses that uses the same evidence to support opposite conclusions.

Of course, we could just ask the people who have left and get their reports. After all, their testimony would have a higher value, since it agrees with what I think already. And someone wanted to know why Scientologists seem paranoid?