German court bans circumcision of young boys

[Bram Kaandorp]

...snip preface about group shower....

Now, also in those days, there was another archaic ritual known as "circumcision", and it was done to darned near every boy in America, and it was not done for religious reasons. It was so commonplace, and done so young, that most of us were unaware that we were circumcised. In fact, there was one boy, and only one, in our gym class that was uncircumcised. I thought he had some sort of disease or malformity of his penis.

Did he have a choice whether or not to grow up different? Did he decide to be the odd one in the showers? Who made that choice? At 18, if he chose to become circumcised, would that eliminate all effects of the choice his parents made?

It's not so easy to take the "pro-choice" argument seriously. That kid didn't have a choice.

Fortunately, it didn't seem to do him, or us, any harm. We had it done, or not, and except for illustrating one element of sexual ignorance, it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference to anyone....snip for brevity...

Sure, that kid was different because his parents didn't have him circumcised. However, saying that he didn't have a choice makes it seem like it would have been better if his parents had, even though you clearly didn't intend that.

But I see what you mean. The line is indeed more muddled than I described them.

 

[zeggman]

Of course circumcision is harmful; the subject loses a healthy body part; the procedure causes pain and leaves a bleeding wound behind. How can that possibly not constitute harm?

Maybe one personally doesn't think that's "a lot" of harm, but it is a real amount of harm; whereas not circumcising a child causes no harm whatsoever.

Let adults decide to do it to themselves.

When I had four teeth pulled for orthodontia, I lost four healthy body parts, the procedure caused pain and left four bleeding wounds behind, and the subsequent pain of the orthodontia itself was (IMO) even worse.

Parental choice.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

I gave several examples. Ear reshaping and tooth removal for orthodontia have nothing but cosmetic justification, and they're considered to be parental prerogative.

So they shouldn't be done on children either. But only the cosmetic ones.

The exception of course is the medically necessary ones, such as cleft palate surgery, which can prevent difficulty with speaking, drinking and eating.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

When I had four teeth pulled for orthodontia, I lost four healthy body parts, the procedure caused pain and left four bleeding wounds behind, and the subsequent pain of the orthodontia itself was (IMO) even worse.

Parental choice.

Was there medical need? Were those teeth pushing inward toward the other teeth?

If not, then I agree that it wasn't necessary.

 

[ddt]

I have met three such people in my life that I can think of. Two of them converted to Judaism and felt compelled to be circumcised as adults.

That argument doesn't make sense. We've heard from several rabbis now how circumcision is an essential initiation rite into Judaism. If they'd been circumcised as a child - when they weren't yet Jews - they would have missed this essential initiation rite because there would have been nothing left for the mohel to chop off.

The other had a foreskin infection when he was 19. All of them wished they had grown up circumcised.

That sounds very much as if he'd also wished to have had routine tonsillectomy if he'd later had a tonsil infection. Or that they'd pulled his wisdom teeth as a routine measure before they became trouble.

In short, inane arguments the both of them, from the sound of it. But thanks for sharing the stories and humouring me.

 

[ddt]

The line between giving someone a choice versus not giving him a choice is not as clear as everyone would like to think.

Let us go back to an ancient time in America. Specifically, to the days when I was a teenager, approximately 35 years ago.

In those ancient days, there was an archaic ritual known as "gym class", and all males were forced to endure it. Starting at the age of 12, a strange element was added to that archaic ritual. All the boys would remove all of their clothing and allow water to run over their bodies. They would do this in the company and in full view of all the other boys.

For those who grew up more recently, it may sound ridiculous, but I assure you we really did this.

Now, also in those days, there was another archaic ritual known as "circumcision", and it was done to darned near every boy in America, and it was not done for religious reasons. It was so commonplace, and done so young, that most of us were unaware that we were circumcised. In fact, there was one boy, and only one, in our gym class that was uncircumcised. I thought he had some sort of disease or malformity of his penis.

Did he have a choice whether or not to grow up different? Did he decide to be the odd one in the showers? Who made that choice? At 18, if he chose to become circumcised, would that eliminate all effects of the choice his parents made?

It's not so easy to take the "pro-choice" argument seriously. That kid didn't have a choice.

Fortunately, it didn't seem to do him, or us, any harm. We had it done, or not, and except for illustrating one element of sexual ignorance, it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference to anyone.

P.S. I am told on good authority that females underwent a similar ritual after gym class, but despite my best efforts, I was never allowed to confirm this by direct observation. My own attempts to visualize it were numerous, but probably not entirely accurate.

For humourous effect, repeat the story with a German highschool class. No-one circumcised, except for the two Muslim kids.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

deleted.

 

[Mycroft]

That argument doesn't make sense. We've heard from several rabbis now how circumcision is an essential initiation rite into Judaism. If they'd been circumcised as a child - when they weren't yet Jews - they would have missed this essential initiation rite because there would have been nothing left for the mohel to chop off.

Done as an adult, not only do you remember the discomfort, but there is a much greater risk of complications. It makes perfect sense for a convert to wish it had already been done when he was an infant.

In short, inane arguments the both of them, from the sound of it. But thanks for sharing the stories and humouring me.

I don't see anything inane about them. It makes perfect sense to wish a procedure had been done preventively when it is easier to do than to wait until a person is older and doesn't heal as easily.

 

[ddt]

I gave several examples. Ear reshaping and tooth removal for orthodontia have nothing but cosmetic justification, and they're considered to be parental prerogative.

I disagree. I already shared my orthodontia story, but I'll repeat it.

I had a large overbite. My lower incisors didn't close against the backside of the upper incisors, but against the palate. This resulted regularly in bleeding of the palate. I was 15 or 16 at the time. The orthodontist said that braces would be a very tedious affair, and that it was simpler to pull two upper premolars, so the upper incisors would move a bit to the back. That would also have the nice side effect that there would be more room for the upper wisdom teeth to come through. And thus happened, and I since never had problem with bleeding, nor with my wisdom teeth.

So yes, pulling teeth for orthodontia can have a therapeutic justification.

 

[zeggman]

So yes, pulling teeth for orthodontia can have a therapeutic justification.

Circumcision can also have a therapeutic justification. Most of the controversy seems to be about cases which are primarily cultural or cosmetic. Since most of the time orthodontics are cosmetic, they're a relevant illustration of the range of parental rights.

 

[ddt]

Done as an adult, not only do you remember the discomfort, but there is a much greater risk of complications. It makes perfect sense for a convert to wish it had already been done when he was an infant.

We're talking of someone who wanted to be circumcised for religious reasons, and now you're trying again to bring medical arguments into it? You simply haven't heard what all those rabbis said.

I don't see anything inane about them. It makes perfect sense to with a procedure had been done preventively when it is easier to do than to wait until a person is older and doesn't heal as easily.

Oh yes, let's pull all the teeth lest they grow askew, let's do tonsillectomy on everyone, remove the appendix and the toenails for good measure too. You're not serious are you? This was a perfect example of ex post facto thinking: "if I had known that X would happen, I wish I would have done Y".

 

[ddt]

Circumcision can also have a therapeutic justification. Most of the controversy seems to be about cases which are primarily cultural or cosmetic. Since most of the time orthodontics are cosmetic, they're a relevant illustration of the range of parental rights.

How many times must this be repeated? Nobody argues against medically indicated circumcision, only about the cultural/religious type.

As to your orthodontia claims, evidence please. Your previous claim was that all orthodontia was for cosmetic reasons, which I've shown to be a lie.

 

[ddt]

The exception of course is the medically necessary ones, such as cleft palate surgery, which can prevent difficulty with speaking, drinking and eating.

... and cause various infections and even hearing loss.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

... and cause various infections and even hearing loss.

Exactly.

 

[zeggman]

As to your orthodontia claims, evidence please. Your previous claim was that all orthodontia was for cosmetic reasons, which I've shown to be a lie.

I've already offered my personal story, which has all the weight yours does.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

I've already offered my personal story, which has all the weight yours does.

Then add mine. My wisdom teeth had to go because of crowding.

 

[Mycroft]

We're talking of someone who wanted to be circumcised for religious reasons, and now you're trying again to bring medical arguments into it? You simply haven't heard what all those rabbis said.

Just because you're religiously motivated doesn't mean you want to go through a couple months of having painful erections. It's quite rational for a convert to wish it had been done in infancy so the adult ritual could be more symbolic.

Oh yes, let's pull all the teeth lest they grow askew, let's do tonsillectomy on everyone, remove the appendix and the toenails for good measure too. You're not serious are you? This was a perfect example of ex post facto thinking: "if I had known that X would happen, I wish I would have done Y".

The challenge you gave was to come up with real-life examples of people who wished they had been circumcised as children. Meadmaker did so.

 

[Mycroft]

As to your orthodontia claims, evidence please. Your previous claim was that all orthodontia was for cosmetic reasons, which I've shown to be a lie.

To be an apt comparison it's only necessary that some orthodontia be of cosmetic value only.

Such as my daughter's. Purely cosmetic, but we paid for it anyway and didn't give her a choice.

 

[ddt]

I've already offered my personal story, which has all the weight yours does.

That's not the point. You claimed all orthodontia was cosmetic. That was a lie.

To be an apt comparison it's only necessary that some orthodontia be of cosmetic value only.

That was not the point. The point was that zeggman claimed that all orthodontia was cosmetic. Which is a lie. Only one counterexample needed. Zeggman's and your daughter's examples are irrelevant for that claim.

Sure, we could discuss whether cosmetic orthodonthia should be allowed, in fact, it has already been discussed. But that was not what zeggman claimed.

 

[Checkmite]

The days when being uncircumcised would've made an American boy "the only odd one in the showers" are long, long gone. That particular argument doesn't even need consideration really.

In my school career, we didn't even take showers after gym class until high school, and as far as I can tell we generally did not look at each other's penises - and if somebody did, well by then they were at least aware of what circumcision was so nobody cared.