Scientology abandoned by Hubbard's granddaughter & Miscavige's father

[Justinian2]

Edited to remove breach of Rule 12.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[Justinian2]

It is often said, about many if not all of those systems, that what you get out of them depends on what you put into them. Do you think your personal tastes or personal affinity for the elements of the Scientology system might have affected your level of involvement and commitment, and might therefore be influencing your assessment of the results?

After all, one would not expect a Christian who attends church on Sunday mornings to get the same benefits from that system as an initiate living and working in a Christian fraternal order. But those lesser benefits might very well be sufficient for that person's needs -- and no one is asking for their boat, car, or trailer in exchange.

Many here have found skepticism sufficient for their needs. Is there something wrong with that? Perhaps they simply found skepticism more to their personal taste than you did, and/or were better at it than you were when you tried it and found it wanting.

Respectfully,
Myriad

I don't know how skepticism can fill a void.

I am skeptical about world governments and societies, yet that doesn't fill a void - it makes me angry.

 

[The Dark Lord]

I find it amazing that someone like Lron could con so many people out of so much money just by making up a bunch of nonsense. I almost wish I didn't have a conscience so I could do the same thing.

 

[Justinian2]

I read Dianetics back in the mid-90s. One thing that kept bugging me was the concept of a "clear". This was supposed to be the pinnacle of humanity, someone who had completed all of Dianetic training and was free of all mental problems. Dianetics had been around for decades at this point. Where were all the clears?!? All of these super-intelligence, super-charismatic, happy people? Surely, you couldn't hide them all; but why would Scientology want to, anyway? The testimony and abilities of all these clears should've made it apparent, by that time, that Scientology was a working science, and everybody would've already been on board. What had happened?

A few years later I got on the Internet, and found out that "clear" was not the end of Scientology. No, indeed! In fact, it was only the beginning. There were levels upon levels after that. You were always sending more money to the church, because you were never done. There was always one more level to complete. What's more, there's no evidence that a Scientologist is any more "able" than a non-Scientologist. That's when I realized it was a scam.

I have been totally clear and floating several times. When you get like that you are really happy and serene. The world doesn't bother you. Nothing bothers you. You laugh a lot. If I left for a Buddhist monistary, I would still be like that. Eventually, however, I wouldn't feel good about myself for letting people suffer without trying to help. I do help, but not often enough. Everybody I've met, except for the people that oppose me, are better off for having known me. I wish I could do more.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Justinian, do you people in the Freezone believe the Xenu story? If so, not too much left to discuss. If not, why not? Don't you people follow Lron's teachings? If you can ignore that part, which is really the basis for your entire cult, why believe any of it?

 

[marplots]

A few years later I got on the Internet, and found out that "clear" was not the end of Scientology. No, indeed! In fact, it was only the beginning. There were levels upon levels after that. You were always sending more money to the church, because you were never done. There was always one more level to complete. What's more, there's no evidence that a Scientologist is any more "able" than a non-Scientologist. That's when I realized it was a scam.

I think you have the wrong standard. I don't have to be more able than a non-Scientologist, just more able than the person I used to be. There's a relativity aspect. Money isn't a good metric either. How much should I pay for self improvement? How much more if there is only a single supplier?

Money spent is the wrong yardstick.

 

[Myriad]

I don't know how skepticism can fill a void.

I am skeptical about world governments and societies, yet that doesn't fill a void - it makes me angry.

Two possibilities:

1. What void? Skeptics don't need to fill a void.

2. Skepticism does fill whatever void you're referring to, and of course you don't know how, you've never practiced it beyond the most trivially cursory degree. (Being "skeptical about governments" captures about as much of skeptical practice as taking a lie detector test captures Scientology practice. If someone said, "I took a lie detector test once at work, and that didn't fill a void, it made me angry, so I don't know how Scientology can fill a void" how would you respond?)

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I think you have the wrong standard. I don't have to be more able than a non-Scientologist, just more able than the person I used to be. There's a relativity aspect.

In Dianetics, Hubbard made some specific claims about the abilities of clears. For example, he stated that clears don't catch colds. That's not relative: clears DO NOT catch colds. Period. Relative would be something like "Well, before I became clear, I had more colds; now, I have fewer colds." But that is not what Hubbard said. Clears do not catch colds at all.

But there's more to it than that. Hubbard describes the clear in such wondrous, glowing terms in Dianetics. It's almost like a messianic state. I would be very disappointed indeed if I got to clear, and I still felt like I had unresolved issues. Which is, of course, what happens, so the church can keep stringing you along and get more money out of you.

Money isn't a good metric either. How much should I pay for self improvement? How much more if there is only a single supplier?

Money spent is the wrong yardstick.

Well, if there's only a single supplier, it's almost definitely a scam. In any case, I would ask myself "Why is there only a single supplier?!?" and I would be very suspicious.

Frankly, self-improvement is so full of scams, it's probably best not to pay for any of it. You can get so much of it for free off of the web, or at your local library...and it's the same quality as the stuff you pay for.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

I don't know how skepticism can fill a void.

I am skeptical about world governments and societies, yet that doesn't fill a void - it makes me angry.

I think they're referring to Scientific Skepticism, which is a philosophy.

 

[ddt]

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of and response to moderated content.

 

[Justinian2]

Justinian, do you people in the Freezone believe the Xenu story? If so, not too much left to discuss. If not, why not? Don't you people follow Lron's teachings? If you can ignore that part, which is really the basis for your entire cult, why believe any of it?

The basis for my beliefs in Scientology, is the synopsis of the religion contained the "The Scientology Handbook", a 783 page book that weighs 7 pounds. It contains no reference to Xenu.

Xenu is audited in lieu of Hitler and the hundreds of similar tyrants that have walked the earth.

 

[Justinian2]

I think they're referring to Scientific Skepticism, which is a philosophy.

I've yet to see any scientific skepticism.

 

[Justinian2]

In Dianetics,

Frankly, self-improvement is so full of scams, it's probably best not to pay for any of it. You can get so much of it for free off of the web, or at your local library...and it's the same quality as the stuff you pay for.

Everything is a scam to me. I'm skeptical of all groups. Right now I'm talking to the Florida's Attorney General about the timeshare scam that cost a relative $80.000. Wikipedia says that Westgate Resorts is a real estate company and timeshare company. The company began when David A. Siegel started Central Florida Investments (CFI), the parent company of Westgate Resorts.

Everything is a scam to me. All governments are scams.

 

[The Dark Lord]

The basis for my beliefs in Scientology, is the synopsis of the religion contained the "The Scientology Handbook", a 783 page book that weighs 7 pounds. It contains no reference to Xenu.

Xenu is audited in lieu of Hitler and the hundreds of similar tyrants that have walked the earth.

Yeah they smartly don't mention the Xenu crap until you pay them enough money. Fact of the matter is that without Xenu there would be no body theatans. Or do you not believe in those? Did your God, Lron just make them up along with Xenu (yes)? If that's all just made up gibberish, why believe anything that Lron said?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Everything is a scam to me. I'm skeptical of all groups. Right now I'm talking to the Florida's Attorney General about the timeshare scam that cost a relative $80.000. Wikipedia says that Westgate Resorts is a real estate company and timeshare company. The company began when David A. Siegel started Central Florida Investments (CFI), the parent company of Westgate Resorts.

Everything is a scam to me. All governments are scams.

Sounds like you need some auditing.

 

[marplots]

In Dianetics, Hubbard made some specific claims about the abilities of clears. For example, he stated that clears don't catch colds. That's not relative: clears DO NOT catch colds. Period. Relative would be something like "Well, before I became clear, I had more colds; now, I have fewer colds." But that is not what Hubbard said. Clears do not catch colds at all.

Then you could use colds as an indicator of whether you have reached the state of clear. Are we assuming that the state is permanent once obtained or a state one can move into and out of? I have never thought of it as a kind of permanent enlightenment where auditing is no longer of any use.

But there's more to it than that. Hubbard describes the clear in such wondrous, glowing terms in Dianetics. It's almost like a messianic state. I would be very disappointed indeed if I got to clear, and I still felt like I had unresolved issues. Which is, of course, what happens, so the church can keep stringing you along and get more money out of you.

Perhaps we misunderstand what clear means. After all Mr. Hubbard aged and died. Did he choose to do so or is clear a myth?

Well, if there's only a single supplier, it's almost definitely a scam. In any case, I would ask myself "Why is there only a single supplier?!?" and I would be very suspicious.

What would you say to those who have tried the product and judged it otherwise?

Frankly, self-improvement is so full of scams, it's probably best not to pay for any of it. You can get so much of it for free off of the web, or at your local library...and it's the same quality as the stuff you pay for.

I would say it is more than self-improvement, at least in the way there is a student-teacher element and not entirely a self-guided improvement. I have read a few books on golf. I learned some tips. I even try to apply some of them. However, I still think a professional golf instructor would add great value. There's the "body of knowledge" and then there's the "body of knowledge as applied to me." It's the latter that makes a Harvard degree more worthwhile than reading material on the Internet. The interactive part, the guidance.

Scientology is much more vast than most people give it credit for. Guidance through the terrain is very much worthwhile.

A good example would be Sunday school in the Christian faith. You would think, after a decade or two, everyone who regularly attended Sunday school would have graduated. But they don't. There's just too much to revisit in the Bible, too much to learn and lots of insight from lots of different teachers. Yet it's the same book.

 

[devnull]

You never were into Scientology

...

The exception is that the people that don't like Scientology or the Freezone will deliberately be a pain in the a** (but you don't have to tell them).

Justin, can you not see what a trap this kind of thinking is?

What you basically believe is that scientology (or at least the "tech") works in a somewhat magical way, unless it doesnt, in which case the person wasnt doing it right.

Do you understand the concept of confirmation bias?

 

[hgc]

There was always one more level to complete.

OTVIII is the top level. Here's what an OTVIII is:



The crème de la crème of a bucket of vomit.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Then you could use colds as an indicator of whether you have reached the state of clear. Are we assuming that the state is permanent once obtained or a state one can move into and out of? I have never thought of it as a kind of permanent enlightenment where auditing is no longer of any use.

So what do you do if you go clear, and then get a cold one week later? Did it just not "stick"?

Perhaps we misunderstand what clear means. After all Mr. Hubbard aged and died. Did he choose to do so or is clear a myth?

I don't remember anything about clears being immortal...

What would you say to those who have tried the product and judged it otherwise?

I would ask them if it had worked, and why. But I would try to keep in mind that anecdotes are not the same as evidence.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

OTVIII is the top level. Here's what an OTVIII is:

I've heard rumors about higher levels. Maybe OT 8 is the top level. Or maybe it's just the highest one the public knows about.