German court bans circumcision of young boys

So how do you stand on elective removal of normal toenails from normal healthy babies? After all, they won't remember it, and the toes look fine afterwards, and they'll still be able to kick a football OK. Might as well get it done now, and get it over with. Think about how much easier personal foot hygiene will be, and the preventative benefits regarding ingrowing toenails and onychodystrophy. After all, some adults have to have their toenails pulled because of these diseases, and it hurts like hell. Better get it done when they're too young to remember.

Works for me. Toenails are only useless bits of skin, after all.

Rolfe.
 
protruding ears

In many countries these are routinely corrected, because they are a known source of problems in social relations and self-esteem, at least in childhood and teenage. Owners of these get bullied and have a harder time being popular on the mating market.

I fully support routine corrections of protruding ears, and I fully oppose routine circumcisions.
That's an interesting position.

If I slip a finger behind each ear, and make them protrude, it's undeniable that I can hear sounds in front of me more loudly than when they don't protrude.

It seems to me that performing cosmetic surgery on ears, arguably to the detriment of hearing, and performing cosmetic surgery on a penis, arguably to the detriment of Darat's secret sensation, would be equivalent.

I am, of course, in favor of letting the parents decide in both cases. If potential teasing or mating preferences are a valid consideration in one case, I think they're a valid consideration in both cases.

I think they need to be distinct for an important reason, the bar for evaluating the acceptability of something done for a prophylactic reason needs to be necessarily higher than for something done for a therapeutic reason. The reason being that in the former case, the individual is healthy. And when this is cast into the context of prophylactic reasons done via proxy consent, the bar needs to be raised even higher still, again because we start off with the one essential fact, the individudal is healthy.

So I find the two concepts to be related but not necessarily the same:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/therapeutic
Fair enough. I was using "therapeutic" as a way of implying some vague medical benefit, but I have no problem adopting "prophylactic" instead.

I disagree that the individual is necessarily healthy when we are speaking of prophylactic surgery. One of my life-long friends has recently had a double mastectomy, even though cancer was only found in one of her breasts.

As a side note, I would never be so crass that I would describe her as "mutilated".

Technically, extracting healthy teeth could be described as a mutilation. I already pointed out that ear piercing, face-lifts and breast reduction are mutilations. It's a word. It's quite remarkable how many people get their knickers in a twist about it. You'd almost think they were a bit defensive, or compensating or something.
Since you are employing disparaging language to describe my flawless phallus, and I am not stooping to criticisms of yours, I think it's pretty clear who is "a bit defensive, or compensating or something" here.
 
People don't generally use the N-word to refer to people of African descent living outside of Africa, because the N-word, despite accurately describing the aforementioned people, bear extremely negative emotional connotations.

Given that "mutilation" carries similar negative, emotional connotations, referring to circumcision as "mutilation", however "technically" correct the speaker or writer may consider such a reference to be, is in appropriate and unnecessarily inflammatory.
 
Fair enough. I was using "therapeutic" as a way of implying some vague medical benefit, but I have no problem adopting "prophylactic" instead.

I disagree that the individual is necessarily healthy when we are speaking of prophylactic surgery. One of my life-long friends has recently had a double mastectomy, even though cancer was only found in one of her breasts.

I think it depends on how you look at it. One could say it was either a therapeutic or prophylactic removal of the second breast. It's hard to know given the nature of cancer. Is it the breast we consider healthy or the person? I think the difficulty is not in the definition but what word you would apply to her situation, both could fit.

As a side note, I would never be so crass that I would describe her as "mutilated".

I wouldn't either but lets keep in mind we're talking about a consensual medical treatment with therapeutic intent. What would you say if it was done against her will, no cancer present? How would she see that situation? That's part of the difference.
 
I wouldn't either but lets keep in mind we're talking about a consensual medical treatment with therapeutic intent. What would you say if it was done against her will, no cancer present? How would she see that situation? That's part of the difference.

Is bilateral radical mastectomy the medically necessary treatment for unilateral cancer?

Also, keep in mind that Rolfe has said that "technically" cosmetic surgery is mutilation, so there are some very broad usages of "mutilation" in this thread.
 
Is bilateral radical mastectomy the medically necessary treatment for unilateral cancer?

Maybe maybe not, depends on what comes back from the biopsy and pathology reports, history, and risk factors. At the very least it may be a good idea as a prophylactic precaution.
 
Maybe maybe not, depends on what comes back from the biopsy and pathology reports, history, and risk factors. At the very least it may be a good idea as a prophylactic precaution.

And if it wasn't? Did she mutilate herself?
 
If we all promise to stop using the word "mutilate" or any form thereof, can we get back to discussing the actual topic of the OP?
 
Not really, because emotional appeal is part of the anti-circumcision rhetoric.

From the series of posts, it seems rather that you keep harping on about the use of the word by lack of substantive arguments.

As for the double masectomy example, the patient herself is an adult and can make an informed decision for herself. A baby who gets circumcised not.
 
Not really, because emotional appeal is part of the anti-circumcision rhetoric.

Is it? Funny, most of the outrage about the German courts ban is from pro-circumcision groups frothing at the mouth. Jewish groups have already made mention of hitler's ban on circumcision. Israel is recommending German Jews emigrate to their war torn region because the German courts said they couldn't snip the foreskins off their sons.
 
Two five year old boys are standing at the potty to pee.
When one says, Your thing doesn't have any skin on it!
I've been circumcised says the second boy.
What does that mean?"
It means they cut the skin off the end.
How old were you when it was cut off?
My mom said that I was two days old.
Did it hurt?
You bet it hurt, I couldn't walk for a year!
 
Can anybody give me one single reason why pulling babies' toenails out could not be justified, in exactly the same terms circumcision is justified?

Other than, we've always done it, or God told us to do it, of course.

Rolfe.
 
Can anybody give me one single reason why pulling babies' toenails out could not be justified, in exactly the same terms circumcision is justified?

There is no justification for performing these acts on infants other than god told me.

Circumcision on infants is barbaric regardless of the number of trouble free outcomes.
 
Is it? Funny, most of the outrage about the German courts ban is from pro-circumcision groups frothing at the mouth. Jewish groups have already made mention of hitler's ban on circumcision. Israel is recommending German Jews emigrate to their war torn region because the German courts said they couldn't snip the foreskins off their sons.
Well of course, because Israel faces a demographic threat from people who circumcise their sons at the wrong age. :rolleyes:

Can anybody give me one single reason why pulling babies' toenails out could not be justified, in exactly the same terms circumcision is justified?

Other than, we've always done it, or God told us to do it, of course.

Rolfe.
No argument from me here.

@Skwinty: nice joke! :)
 

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