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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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Well the entire basis to this argument is whether or not those transactions during those few days before the first bond hearing were suspicious activity.

Disputing one piece of evidence is not going to have any bearing on whether or not it was suspicious activity.

As NBS said above, and the forensic accountant said at the last hearing, cash is the only way to hide money.

I was surprised to see this being discussed here because it has been put to rest elsewhere. I don't really feel like looking it up right now, but I'm certain we found that the types of transfers the Zimmermans engaged in are not even monitored by the feds.

I transferred far more than 10K from one of my accounts to another a couple of years ago, and I didn't have to fill out anything other than the transfer. Shockingly, the bank officer didn't even ask for my I.D.! I didn't realize it until I was driving home. I didn't rat out the woman at the bank, though. Not my style.
 
I think anyone who has ever actually *had* a car can grasp the concept of keeping a flashlight in it that is easy to grab.

Really? I've owned a number of cars over the past 22 years and I've never even once had the need to use a flash light.

Enlighten me, why would you need a flashlight in a car, and why would it need to be in a place where it's easy to grab hold of.
 
The option to flee ... I thought that was clear ? The possibility that he would be able to leave the country, if he chose, because he still had a passport.

Isn't it amazing that both you and I have acknowledged this as a possibility but that's not enough? Only mindlessly jumping to absolutely conclusions without evidence is adequate. The only correct conclusion is "he was planning to flee and was thwarted". Never mind how extreme that is, never mind that they were still paying bills, never mind that he has a good chance of getting off, never mind that he told his attorney about the money 4 days later. Evidence schmevidence! He was getting ready to flee!
 
That reminds me of Dan O.'s idea pages ago that no one commented on.

If Peter Pan stood for PayPal, I don't find it that implausible that Heaven could stand for Havana....

As opposed to just a wonderful safe place ... really ?

[...]
At least now you are are admitting that he turned the passport and money over after his supposed escape plans, if there were any, fell through.

Wouldn't it be more likely that Z did that because his plans fell through? I find you suggesting that Z did that because he realized "it would be wrong" to be highly unlikely.

That argument presupposes that he had plans and they were thwarted.

I don't know GZ, but all those FBI interviews seemed to indicate he very much would do the right thing. None of us know him and are qualified to find his motivations 'highly unlikely' or even highly unlikely.

That question did not read as sexist to me. And apparently not to others either. I think it is very telling that you read it as such...

You state that you read things into people responses frequently, but you never tell use what those things are... I find that very telling....

RT said "committing a felony". I assume RT means the one Z is charged with. You then added the word convicted... I don't see what is wrong with RT operating ont he basis that the State is correct in their charges when wondering if Z was trying to flee. We'll have to wait until after the trial to see if he is convinced.

You don't see a problem stating that GZ already committed a felony that he hasn't been convicted of ????

Really though, there is just as much or more evidence that Z was planning to flee than there was that M was a burglar.

Because you say so ?
 

M could have had the jewelry for legit reasons just as likely as Z hid the money and passport for legit reasons.

I can only assume why you think one but not the other.


Since there was no discussion or plans to flee at all, would that be evidence he was not going to flee ?

According to you there wasn't.

The judge thinks that all the discussion about hiding money (which there is solid evidence of) indicated plans to flee.
 
Really? I've owned a number of cars over the past 22 years and I've never even once had the need to use a flash light.

Enlighten me, why would you need a flashlight in a car, and why would it need to be in a place where it's easy to grab hold of.

In case your car breaks down ? And the glove box is a convenient place to keep it so you know where it is.

Again, USAA says to keep a flashlight and spare batteries in each car.
 
Really? I've owned a number of cars over the past 22 years and I've never even once had the need to use a flash light.

Enlighten me, why would you need a flashlight in a car, and why would it need to be in a place where it's easy to grab hold of.
Nope. You've moved the goalposts to a place where you cannot be enlightened... not even with a flashlight.

Pulling them back in place, the insinuation was that Zimmerman having a flashlight is somehow evidence of his guilt.
That would only be rational if flashlights in cars were somehow a rarity.

You choosing not to have one in no way supports that notion.
 
You don't see a problem stating that GZ already committed a felony that he hasn't been convicted of ????

I just explained that in what you quoted...

I don't see what is wrong with RT operating on the basis that the State is correct in their charges when wondering if Z was trying to flee.


Because you say so ?


No. And not because the judge said so either. Because of the evidence.

ETA: Well at least this is better than your original reason for not agreeing with the Judge that it is likely that Z was planning to flee. I'll give you that.
 
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In case your car breaks down ? And the glove box is a convenient place to keep it so you know where it is.

Again, USAA says to keep a flashlight and spare batteries in each car.
Who needs flashlights to go poking aound under the hood, when matches work perfectly well?


:roll:
 
Who needs flashlights to go poking aound under the hood, when matches work perfectly well?


:roll:

What percentage of people would be poking around under their own hood?? Like 10% tops?

Note: I am not suggesting that having a flashlight with you at all times is a bad idea or indicative of anything.
 
M could have had the jewelry for legit reasons just as likely as Z hid the money and passport for legit reasons.

I can only assume why you think one but not the other.

No need to assume, I've explained multiple times.

Let me try again.

I find Lester writing 'GZ would have fled were it not for the gps' to be the same as if he had written 'TM was clearly guilty of burglary due to his possession of jewelry and a screwdriver'

He does not have enough info to make a valid argument to come to either conclusion.

According to you there wasn't.

No - according to me, there is not enough evidence to conclude it was certain GZ would have fled if not for the ankle bracelet.

The judge thinks that all the discussion about hiding money (which there is solid evidence of) indicated plans to flee.

Yes, it is some circumstantial evidence. Not enough he should conclude “It is entirely reasonable for this court to find that, but for the requirement that he be placed on electronic monitoring, the defendant and his wife would have fled the United States with at least $130,000 of other people’s money.”

BTW - he throws in Shellie for good measure. Do we even know if she has a valid passport ?ETA: Better yet - does the Judge know ? Or he just jumping to conclusions.
 
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I think what you are seeing is this.

Total stations are becoming standard equipment at crime scenes where there is a lot of spread out evidence to locate. My understanding is that SPD used one there.


Is there any indication that a Total station was used? I would think that generation of a map would be a trivial process with any modern survey system so that hand drawing such a map would be a waisted exercise. The existence of the hand drawn map would therefore be a counter indication that automated surveying equipment was used.
 

OK so I misread your current argument. I apologize.

You admit that it is a possibility Z was going to flee.

Your beef is that the Judge said it was a sure thing. That he said it like there was no question about it.

Here's the small problem with that though. If I recall, when we got that bond .pdf, we were all surprised that the Judge said it like that. It was never in question that it was weird that the Judge said it so definitively.
 
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Ridiculous assertions require ridiculous evidence ?

Let's be clear:
I said I believed martin either committed some type of theft or was holding for a friend. Those are two reasonable conclusions based on the circumstances. If I said I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt, what belief should I hold ?

As you do below in defense of Zimmerman, you could simply deny the facts.

Maybe Martin didn't actually have that jewelry and screwdriver.

Maybe the school official was mistaken or confused.

If GZ had lots of money, but no passport, wouldn't that be evidence he was going to flee ?

If GZ had a passport but no money , wouldn't that be evidence he was going to flee ?

Since GZ paid outstanding debts , would that be evidence he was not going to flee ?

Since there was no discussion of extradition or non-extradition countries, would that be evidence he was not going to flee ?

Since there was no discussion or plans to flee at all, would that be evidence he was not going to flee ?

Is there no room for any different interpretation of these facts ?

Zimmerman hid a passport and a large sum of money from the court. I'm open to hearing an alternative explanation that accounts for these facts rather than denying them.

I did. They were hiding the money to appear indigent at the bond hearing. The passport was a mistake, honestly overlooked initially...

And there's that denial I was talking about. At least you didn't insult my intelligence by claiming the hiding of the money was an honest mistake too.

...but then intentionally not turned in, perhaps with the thought it could be used if GZ needed to flee the country.

I see... so after the serendipity of an honest mistake, Zimmerman realizes a second passport might come in handy if he decides to flee, but he never actually planned to flee. He just kept that "plan" in a different part of his brain from where he keeps his actual plans, and that's how we split that particular hair.

Keeping that in mind, here's a thought: Maybe Martin practiced self-hypnosis, and at the time he was caught with the screwdriver and jewelry he wasn't consciously aware of any wrongdoing he engaged in to acquire those items, so realistically he couldn't at that time be culpable for that wrongdoing.

I know that seems farfetched, but don't you think we owe him the benefit of the doubt?

That is completely different, and reasonable alternative to the way Lester interpreted the evidence.

No, you want to pretend "honest mistakes" were made by two people conspiring to decieve the court in contradiction to the evidence. There's actually not a whole lot that's reasonable about that.

The option to flee ... I thought that was clear ? The possibility that he would be able to leave the country, if he chose, because he still had a passport.

Yeah, I'm actually looking for an alternative explanation to Zimmerman planning to flee. So we seem to be in agreement that this is the only reasonable conclusion to draw about a man who hides a passport from the court.

No, that means you can't prove he was going to flee, but was only thwarted by the ankle monitor.

Why do think it needs to be proven? You certainly didn't require anything be proven before deciding Martin was involved in a burglary.

Judge Lesters claim is not just 'he was planning on fleeing'. It's that he would have fled if not for the ankle jewelry.

Because people usually make plans with the intention of carrying them out. Otherwise they wouldn't be called "plans". So Lester drew the very reasonable conclusion that the guy making a plan to flee must have been thwarted.

And my original contention, which I still believe, was simply the conclusion that GZ would have fled if except for the anle bracelet in not giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

And you've yet to offer as a basis for that doubt an alternative explanation why a man facing a lengthy prison term would hide a large sum of money and a passport from the court.
 
That reminds me of Dan O.'s idea pages ago that no one commented on.

If Peter Pan stood for PayPal, I don't find it that implausible that Heaven could stand for Havana....


Of course, that was earlier. With new information that was just posted where George talkes amount going from taking a shower in Heaven to waiting for shower day, it's apparent that Heaven is their code name for the retreat where George was hiding out.


I don't understand this talk about threats against George. Is there really some idiot out there who is threatening to turn stupid boy into a martyr?
 
Isn't it amazing that both you and I have acknowledged this as a possibility but that's not enough? Only mindlessly jumping to absolutely conclusions without evidence is adequate. The only correct conclusion is "he was planning to flee and was thwarted". Never mind how extreme that is, never mind that they were still paying bills, never mind that he has a good chance of getting off, never mind that he told his attorney about the money 4 days later. Evidence schmevidence! He was getting ready to flee!

Maybe you can offer an alternative explanation for why a guy facing a murder charge hides a large sum of money and a passport from the court.

I'll be over here holding my breath.
 
OK so I misread your current argument. I apologize.

You admit that it is a possibility Z was going to flee.

Your beef is that the Judge said it was a sure thing. No question about it.

Here's the small problem with that though. If I recall, when we got that bond .pdf, we were all surprised that the Judge said it like that. It was never in question that it was weird that the Judge said it so definitively.

The judge specifically called it a "reasonable" conclusion in his order.

And that's what it is.

Apparently, this isn't good enough for some people.
 
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