Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

These are the judge's exact words:


Zimmerman's actions speak for themselves.

He was afforded the opportunity to explain his actions and failed to do so.

So how is it unreasonable for the judge to draw the conclusion that he did?

What other conclusions could he have drawn?

And how is coming to that perfectly reasonable conclusion - coupled with the fact that he still granted him bond - at all an expression of bias towards Zimmerman?

Every benefit of the doubt would have meant stating that GZ had the means to flee the country. Lester went beyond that and stated the Zimmerman would have fled. Not 'might have' - would have.

To give someone the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion, means that since he didn't actually leave the country, or even try, you shouldn't conclude that was his plan, when the only evidence is having money and a passport.

Did he call airports ? Did he make other plans with his wife about where he would go ? Is there any evidence other than moving money and having a passport ? If not, I consider that to be very circumstantial.

Sure, he could have been leaving his options open to flee. Possibly even intentionally. But I don't know that, and I can't prove that - and without any other evidence of trying to determine where to flee to ... I wouldn't conclude that.

As has been mentioned - paying off credit card debts is a kind of dumb thing to do if you are going to flee justice anyway, right ?

 

[WildCat]

That's it, thanks!

Ah, so Zimmerman never said he waited at the T because he was scared like you claimed in this post.

Sometimes you have to tell little white lies to find The Truth^TM, right?

 

[johnny karate]

Every benefit of the doubt would have meant stating that GZ had the means to flee the country. Lester went beyond that and stated the Zimmerman would have fled. Not 'might have' - would have.

To give someone the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion, means that since he didn't actually leave the country, or even try, you shouldn't conclude that was his plan, when the only evidence is having money and a passport.

Did he call airports ? Did he make other plans with his wife about where he would go ? Is there any evidence other than moving money and having a passport ? If not, I consider that to be very circumstantial.

Sure, he could have been leaving his options open to flee. Possibly even intentionally. But I don't know that, and I can't prove that - and without any other evidence of trying to determine where to flee to ... I wouldn't conclude that.

As has been mentioned - paying off credit card debts is a kind of dumb thing to do if you are going to flee justice anyway, right ?

Where is written that the judge needs to prove Zimmerman intended to flee the country?

He drew a reasonable conclusion as a means to determine Zimmerman's eligibility for bond.

He offered Zimmerman the opportunity to offer an explanation for his deception. Zimmerman declined to do so. The judge then to took nearly a full week to weigh and consider the evidence before making his decision.

Again, what other possible reasonable conclusion is there to explain Zimmerman's deception?

And absent an alternative, how is coming to the only possible reasonable conclusion indicative of bias?

 

[johnny karate]

True.

Do you have an explicit information about GZ planning to leave the country ? Do you think Judge Lester was privy to secret information we haven't seen ?

Or do you think he just came to conclusion based on circumstantial evidence ?

What other explanation is there for an accused murderer out an bail to hide a large sum of cash and a passport from the court?

Zimmerman couldn't be bothered to offer one.

Maybe you can.

 

[Rare Truth]

Just ONE of the jailhouse calls where he mentions the Airport:

ZIMMERMAN: Okey dokey. You know what I was thinking?
WOMAN: What?
ZIMMERMAN: If they, if they do decide to give me bail or bond
WOMAN: Uh huh
ZIMMERMAN: um, maybe I can just leave from the Sanford Airport and go up to, uh, um,Heaven

 

[johnny karate]

That's different than being given every benefit of the doubt, yes ? Because that is what I am claiming. So let's stick to that, ok ?

For the record, "being given the benefit of the doubt" means not automatically thinking something bad about someone, when there is the possibility to think something good.

So what "good" possibility exists that explains Zimmerman's actions?

 

[sgtbaker]

FWIW, I just called my local Honda dealer. He says:

"If you shut off the ignition and shut off the lights, the lights should shut off immediately".

"If not, there's something wrong with the car. " But this also goes along with the dinging sound. That sound happens when you leave the car with the lights still in the on position but in "auto" mode. In that case, the manual says they shut off after 15 seconds.

I urge all of you to call your local Honda dealer and ask the same question.

This is a feature that I've had in every car, though. I can redo the experiment with my Caravan and my Camaro if you would like, but I think it's highly unlikely that I have four cars with the exact same electrical issue. Did you include the part about turning the lights off after the car is turned off because that is the only thing that makes it work.
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=391515220897792
Here is the minivan doing the exact same thing
https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=391523114230336
I knew about the feature because my 2001 XL7 also did it.

PS call your Honda Dealer and ask about the headlight delay setting.

 

[Bob001]

.... um, maybe I can just leave from the Sanford Airport and go up to, uh, um,Heaven

Any chance he was just being sarcastic, like "Let's just go to Cape Kennedy and fly to the moon?" What was he saying before this remark?

 

[crimresearch]

That's not outlandish really. Those seeking reelection in 2012 (e.g. Angela Corey)benefit from the prosecution - win or lose. Those seeking reelection in 2014 (e.g. The Honorable Judge Lester) have to think about the end game.

Well, passing hot potatos up is a survival skill.

 

[This is The End]

Ah, so you just made it up.

Glad that is all clear now.

Did you know Larry Silverstein admitted on TV that he ordered the demolition of WTC 7?

First of all Z says he was in fear a minute before that. So Z was probably still scared at the T. You denying that is Wow, just Wow.

Second of all Unaboogie admitted he was wrong about hearing the word scared.

Did you admit you were wrong about your grievous errors involved with this case?

No, you moved the goalposts.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8417668&postcount=34

As for you bringing 911 again.

You may have missed this:

No matter how much evidence is presented, truthers demand more.

WildCat your posts like these are confusing me?

Do you realize we are discussing a case where we have yet to see all of the facts? We do not know yet if Z is innocent or a murderer.

People comparing it to bigfoot or other easily debunkable CT only makes themselves look like the person that has formed a decision without solid evidence, not the people you are accusing of being "truthers"?

Perhaps you spent too much time in a conspiracy theory thread where the evidence was solid and you have mistakenly applied it to this thread?

Compare your one liners to one of my recent posts:

I personally do not want an innocent man to be convicted.

I also do not want a murderer to go free.

As it stands, there is some evidence of both.

It really seems that some of you are sticking to one or the other and forgetting about the alternative.

 

[Rare Truth]

Any chance he was just being sarcastic, like "Let's just go to Cape Kennedy and fly to the moon?" What was he saying before this remark?

Read it for yourself, You tell me.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/107714140-18081033.pdf

 

[crimresearch]

Yup, and even though the judge personally seems to think that GZ is a sneaky, manipulative moron, he followed the law. Now as I said, GZ seems kinda stupid and has bad lawyers but if I was in his shoes I'd do everything in my power to keep that judge.

Dump one of the best murder defense lawyers in Florida, and throw away a free piece of leverage.
Sure you would

 

[Cylinder]

Any chance he was just being sarcastic, like "Let's just go to Cape Kennedy and fly to the moon?" What was he saying before this remark?

The reason that particular snippet isn't posted in context is because doing so exposes that they are discussing a security plan between Zimmerman, O'Mara and probably his security team.

ZIMMERMAN: Have you looked into the vest anymore?

SHELLIE: Have you looked into the vest? (background conversation) Okay, we have someone helping us with that.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay, and

SHELLIE: Yeah

ZIMMERMAN: you’re, you’re gonna get three, right?

SHELLIE: Three? Yeah

ZIMMERMAN: One for me, one for you and one for, Mark O’Mara.

SHELLIE: Yep

ZIMMERMAN: Okay good. Is he going to actually like (inaudible)

SHELLIE: Is he going to be out soon Susie? He didn’t say but he’s coming home tonight.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: And we’ll be able to talk to him.

ZIMMERMAN: We need to get on it ASAP, cause you know the, the personally I want you
wearing one.

SHELLIE: Okay

ZIMMERMAN: As uncomfortable as it is, I want you wearing one.

SHELLIE: Uh huh

ZIMMERMAN: And second of all I want, O’Mara having one.

SHELLIE: Okay

ZIMMERMAN: And third, I would like to have one at least here.

SHELLIE: Absolutely

ZIMMERMAN: I mean we don’t know, if you know, if like we get (inaudible) and they couldn’t, you know, have a bond hearing tomorrow, you know.

SHELLIE: I know, I know

ZIMMERMAN: So. (inaudible)

SHELLIE: Okay

ZIMMERMAN: Have him get on that ASAP.

SHELLIE: Okay honey, don’t worry. We’ll, it doesn’t have to only be for him though. I could find one on my own.

ZIMMERMAN: Yes, but be careful where you ship it and you know uh, what car you use, what name you use, all that stuff.

SHELLIE: Okay

ZIMMERMAN: You know what I mean?

SHELLIE: Okay, yeah. Yes, he’s working on that and he’s doing everything for you possible. He wants to be there for you so.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: He’s happy to do it.

ZIMMERMAN: All right, good.

SHELLIE: We’re gonna get it taken care of. Don’t you worry.

ZIMMERMAN: Okey dokey. You know what I was thinking?

SHELLIE: What?

ZIMMERMAN: If they, if they do decide to give me bail or bond

SHELLIE: Uh huh

ZIMMERMAN: um, maybe I can just leave from the Sanford Airport and go up to, uh, um, Heaven.

In another conversation, they talk about using a hotel to transfer vehicles in conjuction with the vests. At the bond hearing, O'Mara was very clear that his security protocol would require Zimmerman to leave the state and that his electronic monitoring had to be secure.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Where is written that the judge needs to prove Zimmerman intended to flee the country?

It's not. Who made that claim ? No one ?

He drew a reasonable conclusion as a means to determine Zimmerman's eligibility for bond.

Since he stated that the prosecution provided no legal reason to not grant bond, I would say that conclusion was definitely not a means to determine eligibility.

He offered Zimmerman the opportunity to offer an explanation for his deception. Zimmerman declined to do so. The judge then to took nearly a full week to weigh and consider the evidence before making his decision.

Again, what other possible reasonable conclusion is there to explain Zimmerman's deception?

And absent an alternative, how is coming to the only possible reasonable conclusion indicative of bias?

I've explained to you - there is a difference between intending to flee as a forgone conclusion, as judge lester stated it, and leaving open the possibility that fleeing as an option.

ETA:
For the record, "being given the benefit of the doubt" means not automatically thinking something bad about someone, when there is the possibility to think something good.
So what "good" possibility exists that explains Zimmerman's actions?

That he was going to and intended to flee is not the only conclusion. There is doubt. To be given 'the benefit of the doubt' means you choose the least wrong action.

In that case judge lester would say: I see GZ was scared and may have even considered fleeing ... but as he turned all the money and passport over to his attorney, it is clear he determined to not to flee because it would be wrong.

 

[Alt+F4]

ZIMMERMAN: um, maybe I can just leave from the Sanford Airport and go up to, uh, um,Heaven

ZIMMERMAN: Do I need a visa to get to "Heaven", or is my secret third (damn, I mean second) passport good enough? Do they use the Euro there? What's a Euro? I don't know, some guy in jail told me it was some kind of deadly money that's gonna destroy the world. Can I charge my iPhone in the wall or do they use the dumbass, non-American power thingy that makes my iPhone work?

Also babe, when we get there I want to see Heaven Can Wait with Warren Beatty because it's about, you know, heaven and Beatty is hot. I made out with him once in 2002 after I shot a bunch of black kids. Don't tell me that Netflix doesn't deliver to "Heaven" because if you do, you're gonna get "Trayvoned".

And remember, we have "4 cents" in our Paypal account. "4 cents".

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The reason that particular snippet isn't posted in context is because doing so exposes that they are discussing a security plan between Zimmerman, O'Mara and probably his security team.



In another conversation, they talk about using a hotel to transfer vehicles in conjuction with the vests. At the bond hearing, O'Mara was very clear that his security protocol would require Zimmerman to leave the state and that his electronic monitoring had to be secure.

Yes, the airport is a convenient way to leave the state.

No one will provide any evidence other than a passport and moving money, because there isn't any. There is no list of non-extradition states. No international tickets purchased. Nothing.

Could be that he was planning on taking off and just wanted to make sure he left a clean credit report before he left, so he paid all the bills. And everyone knows the way to hide money is to electronincally transfer it to your wifes account, becuase no one would know where the money is in that scenario.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

ZIMMERMAN: Do I need a visa to get to "Heaven", or is my secret third (damn, I mean second) passport good enough? Do they use the Euro there? Can I charge my iPhone in the wall or do they use the dumbass, non-American power thingy that makes my iPhone work?

Also babe, when we get there I want to see Heaven Can Wait with Warren Beatty because it's about, you know, heaven and Beatty is hot. I made out with him once in 2002 after I shot a bunch of black kids. Don't tell me that Netflix doesn't deliver to "Heaven" because if you do, you're gonna get "Trayvoned".

So the context is clearly about safety, not fleeing from justice.

Your made up dialogue helps advance the discussion how exactly ?

 

[Alt+F4]

Your made up dialogue helps advance the discussion how exactly?

It amuses me.

 

[Cylinder]

"SHELLIE: That’s gonna be nice. Soon you’ll be able to shower whenever you want.

ZIMMERMAN: I know. It’s so funny. I went from that shower in heaven to,

SHELLIE: I know

ZIMMERMAN: waiting for shower day. (chuckles)

SHELLIE: I know, but, this is only temporary.

ZIMMERMAN: I know. Um, my dad’s really confident about everything. I don’t know what was said in that meeting but my dad seemed very, very confident.

SHELLIE: Yeah, everyone is. You should be too. Trust me. Yeah, I don’t wanna talk about it but, so trust me. The least I talk about it you should know the better.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: Believe me, and um, um, that’s all I’m gonna say. Just trust me.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay. It’s not just Bob being Bob?

SHELLIE: Oh no, oh no-no, no, we-we wanted to celebrate.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: Trust me.

ZIMMERMAN: All right

SHELLIE: Susie and I and everyone wanted to celebrate.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: Our safety council and them were like oh my gosh.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: He’s amazing.

ZIMMERMAN: Good. What’s amazing? O’Mara?

SHELLIE: Uh huh

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, he is, he’s pretty cool.

SHELLIE: Yeah, yeah, but we saw like a different side of him so many times, like, just even different sides, so we’re just like, whoa.

ZIMMERMAN: Is that good?

SHELLIE: Yeah, yeah, trust me, I’m telling you right now like, just anything that he does that seemed harsh, I have so much confidence in him, after that meeting, that I will do whatever he says.

ZIMMERMAN: Okay

SHELLIE: If we had Sonner, I would be like eh, I don’t know, let’s get another opinion.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah

SHELLIE: Not with him man. Like he is doing, what’s best for you.

ZIMMERMAN: Good

SHELLIE: Yep, what’s best for justice.

ZIMMERMAN: Good, that’s all I ask."

Talking about heaven again turns to talking about O'Mara, a security council, and somewhere Zimmerman has not seen yet.

 

[johnny karate]

Since he stated that the prosecution provided no legal reason to not grant bond, I would say that conclusion was definitely not a means to determine eligibility.

Perhaps "eligibility" was a poor choice of words. The issue was not necessarily whether Zimmerman would be granted bond at all. But Zimmerman's intention to flee was quite clearly a factor in determining the bond amount:

The increased bail is not a punishment; it is meant to allay this Court's concern that the Defendant intended to flee the jurisdiction and a lesser amount would not ensure his presence in court.

I've explained to you - there is a difference between intending to flee as a forgone conclusion, as judge lester stated it, and leaving open the possibility that fleeing as an option.

From the judge's point of view, how does Zimmerman's plan to flee being thwarted in some manner mitigate the risk that he might try so again if given the opportunity?

That he was going to and intended to flee is not the only conclusion. There is doubt. To be given 'the benefit of the doubt' means you choose the least wrong action.

In that case judge lester would say: I see GZ was scared and may have even considered fleeing ... but as he turned all the money and passport over to his attorney, it is clear he determined to not to flee because it would be wrong.

He did more than consider fleeing. He took concrete actions to that end. He hid money and conspired with his wife to lie to the court about it. He hid a passport from the court. There are no innocuous explanations for those actions. They were quite clearly done as part of a plan to flee.

And since you wish to parse this incident into before and after Zimmerman's imagined crisis of conscience, it's quite clear the judge is talking about the period of time before Zimmerman finally admitted to his lawyer that he and his wife had been lying.

During that time - as the judge rightly points out - Zimmerman was actively making plans to flee, and the only thing preventing him from doing so was his ankle monitor.

It is therefore a reasonable conclusion that during that time had Zimmerman not had an ankle monitor, he would have fled with his hidden passport and stash of money.