Flight 93 the physics of the impact

[Illuminist14]

Hi all,

I wanted to ask for others thoughts on this, my understanding (albeit simple) is that the plane had lots of momentum, mass x velocity. Therefore due to the large mass had lots of inertia. The reason I say all this is because some people compare it to a bullet hitting soil which would only go a few feet in, but I tell them this has a small amount of inertia, hence the reason it resists change more easily than a large object.

As far as I am aware the crash scene looks like what I would expect, given the fact the soil fell back in over the plane post impact (or at least some soil).

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[jaydeehess]

It hit an area which was reclaimed open pit mine. That means it hit loose but compacted soil consisting of gravel tailings from the mine operation. I have witnessed land reclamation of open pit mine and the gravel consists of rocks from the size of basketballs and down. Very top layer (about the first foot) would be smaller as the tractor ground across it leveling it out.

More dense parts of the a/c would penetrate further.

Yes, the steeper the angle to more likely the soil thrown up would land back in the crater.

Some a/c parts were thrown away from the crater. Engines at full power would have internal fans rotating very fast and would not necessarily act the same as those with only a linear component of velocity.

Yes a bullet does not scale up completely accurately to illustrate what a large 100 ton hollow a/c would do.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I can't see that the "bullet in the soil" analogy would be particularly favourable to truthers even if it had any validity. If you fire a bullet into soil, you'll have to dig it out, same as the debris from UA93.

Dave

 

[Illuminist14]

I can't see that the "bullet in the soil" analogy would be particularly favourable to truthers even if it had any validity. If you fire a bullet into soil, you'll have to dig it out, same as the debris from UA93.

Dave

That's what I thought, a poor analogy.

 

[Illuminist14]

It hit an area which was reclaimed open pit mine. That means it hit loose but compacted soil consisting of gravel tailings from the mine operation. I have witnessed land reclamation of open pit mine and the gravel consists of rocks from the size of basketballs and down. Very top layer (about the first foot) would be smaller as the tractor ground across it leveling it out.

More dense parts of the a/c would penetrate further.

Yes, the steeper the angle to more likely the soil thrown up would land back in the crater.

Some a/c parts were thrown away from the crater. Engines at full power would have internal fans rotating very fast and would not necessarily act the same as those with only a linear component of velocity.

Yes a bullet does not scale up completely accurately to illustrate what a large 100 ton hollow a/c would do.

Thanks yes that is logical, but the other argument is that the engine bounced? But this can be explained by the angle of impact I think and the velocity of the plane to produce so much momentum on the detached engine.

 

[Oystein]

The physics of such impacts, and the flow of compacted dirt under high presure and impulse, is probably far removed from what our intuition can handle.

Reclaimed land, which is loose dirt deposited in a short time at considerable layer thickness, may behave quite different from "grown" ground which usually resulted from slow accretion of material.

Consider three types of high-energy events that move large amounts of ground:

a) Meteorite impacts. Depending on the size, direction and velocity of the meteorite, and on the properties of the ground hit, lots of things can happen: Small meteorite leaves huge crater, large meteorite leaves hardly any crater at all, meteorite leaves crater which immediately gets filled by surrounding soft material, etc

b) Earthquakes. It is sometimes said that sandy soils can behave (transfer waves) much like liquids. Solid ground may momentarily behave like quicksand

c) Landslides. Old strip mines often leave behind a whole that fills up with water to form lakes. One big problem with these lakes is that the banks are very prone to landslides. In a landslide, loose soil starts flowing much like a liquid.


I suggest that plane crashing into refilled strip mine is much like shooting a bullet into mud.

 

[njslim]

According to Wallace Miller, Somerset County Corner, the forward 1/3 section - cockpit
and first class cabin broke off at impact and was thrown into nearby woods

It was here that the largest pieces of debris was recovered including 6 x 7 ft section
of fuselage including cabin windows, part of nose landing gear and other sections of fuselage

One of the engine fans broke off on impact and rolled 300 yards downhill to land in catch pond at bottom of hill

 

[beachnut]

Thanks yes that is logical, but the other argument is that the engine bounced? But this can be explained by the angle of impact I think and the velocity of the plane to produce so much momentum on the detached engine.

Not an engine, an engine part was ejected from the impact. Parts of the plane and people were buried 20 to 30 feet, same as high speed impacts in the USAF. 911 truth claims are formed by nuts and believed by those who want to suspend thinking for themselves and trusting nuts - something their parents warned them about; long forgot.

An engine was buried as seen in photos.

 

[Illuminist14]

Not an engine, an engine part was ejected from the impact. Parts of the plane and people were buried 20 to 30 feet, same as high speed impacts in the USAF. 911 truth claims are formed by nuts and believed by those who want to suspend thinking for themselves and trusting nuts - something their parents warned them about; long forgot.

An engine was buried as seen in photos.

Corrected thank you.

 

[tfk]

Illuminist,

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff7h7Ll8Dl4

It explains everything.

Unless the conspiracy started 14 years earlier...

 

[Illuminist14]

Illuminist,

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff7h7Ll8Dl4

It explains everything.

Unless the conspiracy started 14 years earlier...

Hi tfk,

Yes I've used the PSA flight as an example of a similar crash. There was also an aranian air crash more recently which was similar in terms of speed and hitting a field.

 

[njslim]

Seen this upclose and person when Lear 35A hit nose down at 350 mph in my town

Walked the crash scene planting little flags to mark body parts for coroner to recover...

Twofer seen to think of plane crash in terms of Wiley Coyote and his Acme airplane
after it crashes....

 

[Illuminist14]

Seen this upclose and person when Lear 35A hit nose down at 350 mph in my town

Walked the crash scene planting little flags to mark body parts for coroner to recover...

Twofer seen to think of plane crash in terms of Wiley Coyote and his Acme airplane
after it crashes....

So what's your occupation? If you don't mind me asking.

 

[Edx]

Thanks yes that is logical, but the other argument is that the engine bounced? But this can be explained by the angle of impact I think and the velocity of the plane to produce so much momentum on the detached engine.

What really gets me is the idea that the conclusion truthers make is that the crash zone was faked. In which case they are requiring it to have been intentionally done that way to look fake, either that or they require these black ops ninjas to be dumbasses.

 

[Illuminist14]

What really gets me is the idea that the conclusion truthers make is that the crash zone was faked. In which case they are requiring it to have been intentionally done that way to look fake, either that or they require these black ops ninjas to be dumbasses.

I know it doesn't really make sense to me, its all seems to much work.

 

[jaydeehess]

What really gets me is the idea that the conclusion truthers make is that the crash zone was faked. In which case they are requiring it to have been intentionally done that way to look fake, either that or they require these black ops ninjas to be dumbasses.

Sort of the flip side of the Pentagon where PfT and CiT require witnesses to be dumbasses.

 

[Robrob]

What really gets me is the idea that the conclusion truthers make is that the crash zone was faked. In which case they are requiring it to have been intentionally done that way to look fake, either that or they require these black ops ninjas to be dumbasses.

Correct. Most CT explanations sound like something a slightly dull 5th Grader could have come up with.

 

[nomuse]

That's some of the meta-think that intrigues me. Why would a conspiracy made up of people placing their own necks on the line produce cheap fakery that they know people will see through?

I've pressed more than a few conspiracy believers for an answer to this. They don't seem interested in the question. At best, they'll toss off a incomplete thought about how "the sheeple" are already brainwashed so the conspiracy doesn't have to work that hard to keep them snared.

Which means -- if the conspiracy believer were actually stating it as a premise instead of meandering in that direction before haring off on some other argument -- they are accusing the vast majority of humanity of a form of double-think; of being aware of "the truth" at some level but refusing to accept it.

But that still doesn't answer the question the conspiracy believer lacks the self-reflection to answer. The way buildings fall and airplanes crash and sunlight plays on moon rocks is not the way Hollywood so often depicts it. And this is what the conspiracy believer is usually complaining about; that what he sees doesn't meet up with naive expectation.

So the question becomes; why did the conspiracy do it that way? Why, if the conspiracy is the same one that controls the media, aren't they presenting evidence that is faked -- that is artificial -- in a way consistent with that same media?

 

[jaydeehess]

What would really nail it shut for the CTists would be for them to recreate things such as the faking of the Flight 93 crash.

Wouldn't take that much money. I estimate about $30,000 would easily suffice to have a crew at the ready to go into action at a mine reclaimation area and at the mark they set off say a mile down the road and begin creating a crash site. Let's say they have two hours to dig a crater, pour kerosene on it, scatter a few remains and plant aircraft parts about , including a fan rotor a mile away, set off the fuel and an explosive (to make to 'boom') and get otta Dodge before anyone can get to the site within five minutes of the explosive going off.

 

[Robrob]

But that still doesn't answer the question the conspiracy believer lacks the self-reflection to answer. The way buildings fall and airplanes crash and sunlight plays on moon rocks is not the way Hollywood so often depicts it. And this is what the conspiracy believer is usually complaining about; that what he sees doesn't meet up with naive expectation.

True. Thus the reason for the CD conspiracy theories. The loon has seen CD on TV/YouTube. The loon has never seen any other collapse. All big buildings collapse the same way, CD or not. The loon sees the WTC collapse. The loon immediately jumps to the conclusion the WTC is CD.