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Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

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This article is not without its problems as evidence that the C14 sample area was not a patch.
1. The biases of the author - He is promoting his own theory of why the C14 dating was in error so he has a bias to prove that Rogers' theory is wrong.
2. He references images but unfortunately the images in his report don't seem to be in the on-line version.
3. His claims about the similarity of the patch area to the rest of the shroud seem to rest on x-ray fluorescence reported by Rogers and Schwalbe in PHYSICS AND CHEMISTRY OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN A Summary of the 1978 Investigation.

... etc.


As we discussed when first mentioning that article by Mark Antonacci - Antonacci is in fact a believer in the authenticity of the shroud, and it was also then known that he was in the process of writing a book explaining why he believed the shroud was genuine.

However, if you thereby conclude that reduces his credibility on the basis that he is promoting his own book, and wishes to discredit the idea of a patch which Rogers actually got from Benford and Marino who were also writing their own pro shroud book at that time, then just look at what Antonacci says in his first 3 pages of that link concerning how many people have actually examined that particular C14 area of the shroud, inc. taking microscopically detailed photos of that area.

What he says there in those first 3 pages is not a matter of any bias, is it? It appears to be a matter of undisputed fact that all of those people have examined that area of the shroud in the way he describes.

And it also appears to be a fact, that none of those many dozens of individuals, most of whom were life-long pro-shroud enthusiasts (inc Ray Rogers and Luigi Gonella) ever made any mention of thinking there was a patch, until after the C14 dates were published, did they? And that IS a question, ie - do you know of any objections about a patch in that area prior to the C14 testing?

Apart from Ray Rogers himself, who along with other members of STURP, examined the shroud and took tape samples of loose debris in the 1970’s, those people included all those present when the C14 sample was cut, as well as Flury-Lemberg, Prof Ghibirtia and others who restored the shroud in 2002, members of the C14 labs who then examined their samples in microscopic detail (inc. taking magnified photos), and all those involved in cutting and testing the sample for Gilbert Raes.

But apparently none of those people ever suggested any patch or repair, not even under numerous photos through high power microscopic photography. It seems that only after the C14 results did Ray Rogers echo the claims of Benford and Marino in thinking there must have been an invisible repair.

OK, without going any further into that, and without going into any discussion of any experiments with light banding or any other scientific testing - why do you think the above history of those who actually examined the C14 sample area of the shroud is a matter of Antonacci being biased due to him having a book in preparation? Is the above history of who actually examined the shroud not a matter of fact rather than any claimed “bias”?

And, given the above history of who actually examined the shroud, and how, why and when they did that, why do you think that is less convincing to you than some claimed experiment with something called “light banding” which afaik was never actually published in any real science journal? IOW - even before we get to examining any claimed scientific tests, why do you think the above history may be less convincing than the claim by Ray Rogers who examined a few microscopically small fibres that he says were sent to him by Luigi Gonella?

Is it not a fact, that Rogers himself cannot possibly know what those few fibres actually were, or where they came from? What did Gonella himself ever say about how he is supposed to have obtained those few fibres? Do you know? What actually is the providence or “chain of custody” for the few fibres claimed by Rogers?
 
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And this is evidence that the cloth is 1st C because....?
Were the two in charge searching for the invisible patch so that they could take the sample from there so as to ensure a 14C date?
If said patch is undetectable by the unassisted eye, how did they find it?
In the immortal words of Pauline Hansen : please explain

Exactly.
 
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Not necessarily. One of the weirder aspects of learning geology is watching crystals become invisible in the proper solution. It has to do with their index of refraction. However, it only works for clear crystals, and only for light--when you touch it (with proper protective equipment, of course) you can certainly feel them! And since it's different material, different wavelengths react differently to it--meaning under the right light you can see different colors.

As any Halo player will tell you, "invisible" doesn't mean "impossible to detect", it merely means "impossible to see with the unaided eye". This leaves us all kinds of tests, such as trace element analysis. Which was performed, and is pretty much definitive.
 
As we discussed when first mentioning that article by Mark Antonacci - Antonacci is in fact a believer in the authenticity of the shroud, and it was also then known that he was in the process of writing a book explaining why he believed the shroud was genuine.

However, if you thereby conclude that reduces his credibility on the basis that he is promoting his own book, and wishes to discredit the idea of a patch which Rogers actually got from Benford and Marino who were also writing their own pro shroud book at that time, then just look at what Antonacci says in his first 3 pages of that link concerning how many people have actually examined that particular C14 area of the shroud, inc. taking microscopically detailed photos of that area.

I thought the issue of Antonacci's bias was important because he makes several claims that can't be verified in that paper without further research if they can be verified at all. However I agree that the issue of his biases cuts both ways, and maybe the fact that he is a shroud authenticity supporter should lend more credibility to his negative views of the invisible patch theory.

What he says there in those first 3 pages is not a matter of any bias, is it? It appears to be a matter of undisputed fact that all of those people have examined that area of the shroud in the way he describes.
I thought he made several good arguments that the invisible patch theory is bogus that have been put forth many times in this thread. Most of them seem very solid to me. I didn't rehash those in my post but if you have any doubt:
1. I think it wildly unlikely that an invisible patch is possible that could have been missed by the people that have examined the shroud closely and the people that have photographed the shroud.
2. I think it is very unlikely that such a technically very difficult kind of patching would have been attempted on the shroud without there having been any documentary evidence for it.
3. I think the ad hoc nature of the invisible patch claim is highly suspicious which suggests that the basis of the claim is just wishful thinking by shroud authenticity supporters.
4. I think that the evidence put forth to support the invisible patch theory has been largely discredited.
And it also appears to be a fact, that none of those many dozens of individuals, most of whom were life-long pro-shroud enthusiasts (inc Ray Rogers and Luigi Gonella) ever made any mention of thinking there was a patch, until after the C14 dates were published, did they? And that IS a question, ie - do you know of any objections about a patch in that area prior to the C14 testing?

Apart from Ray Rogers himself, who along with other members of STURP, examined the shroud and took tape samples of loose debris in the 1970’s, those people included all those present when the C14 sample was cut, as well as Flury-Lemberg, Prof Ghibirtia and others who restored the shroud in 2002, members of the C14 labs who then examined their samples in microscopic detail (inc. taking magnified photos), and all those involved in cutting and testing the sample for Gilbert Raes.

But apparently none of those people ever suggested any patch or repair, not even under numerous photos through high power microscopic photography. It seems that only after the C14 results did Ray Rogers echo the claims of Benford and Marino in thinking there must have been an invisible repair.

OK, without going any further into that, and without going into any discussion of any experiments with light banding or any other scientific testing - why do you think the above history of those who actually examined the C14 sample area of the shroud is a matter of Antonacci being biased due to him having a book in preparation? Is the above history of who actually examined the shroud not a matter of fact rather than any claimed “bias”?
To be clear I didn't mean that anything that Antonacci wrote was affected by his biases. I merely took note of the possibility. Where Antonacci made claims that I had seen primary or good sources for I didn't even think his biases were relevant. Where he made claims that I had to trust him that he had reasonably characterized the work of others I was willing to acknowledge the possibility that his biases may have colored his interpretations of the evidence.

And, given the above history of who actually examined the shroud, and how, why and when they did that, why do you think that is less convincing to you than some claimed experiment with something called “light banding” which afaik was never actually published in any real science journal? IOW - even before we get to examining any claimed scientific tests, why do you think the above history may be less convincing than the claim by Ray Rogers who examined a few microscopically small fibres that he says were sent to him by Luigi Gonella?

Is it not a fact, that Rogers himself cannot possibly know what those few fibres actually were, or where they came from? What did Gonella himself ever say about how he is supposed to have obtained those few fibres? Do you know? What actually is the providence or “chain of custody” for the few fibres claimed by Rogers?
I think most of the above questions arise because the intent of my post wasn't as clear as it might have been. As I noted above I believe the arguments against the invisible patch theory even without the chemical homogeneity arguments and the banding arguments are very powerful and perhaps sufficient for a conclusion that the invisible patch theory is bogus. What I was looking for was proof for two other lines of argument that the invisible patch theory was bogus. The trace element analysis argument put forth by Dinwar and the banding argument which I think I first saw in Antonacci's paper. The banding argument looks to be a particularly strong argument if it is true (and I think the image I included suggests that it is). Even if one believes that an invisible patch is possible, could a patch be done so as that the varying opacity of the threads of the reweave line up with the threads of the unpatched area?
 
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Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

Dave,
- See below.
--- Jabba
I thought the issue of Antonacci's bias was important because he makes several claims that can't be verified in that paper without further research if they can be verified at all. However I agree that the issue of his biases cuts both ways, and maybe the fact that he is a shroud authenticity supporter should lend more credibility to his negative views of the invisible patch theory.
- Sounds reasonable to me.

davefoc said:
I thought he made several good arguments that the invisible patch theory is bogus that have been put forth many times in this thread. Most of them seem very solid to me. I didn't rehash those in my post but if you have any doubt:
1. I think it wildly unlikely that an invisible patch is possible that could have been missed by the people that have examined the shroud closely and the people that have photographed the shroud.
2. I think it is very unlikely that such a technically very difficult kind of patching would have been attempted on the shroud without there having been any documentary evidence for it.
3. I think the ad hoc nature of the invisible patch claim is highly suspicious which suggests that the basis of the claim is just wishful thinking by shroud authenticity supporters.
4. I think that the evidence put forth to support the invisible patch theory has been largely discredited.
- Good points. I'll see what I can do for answers.

davefoc said:
To be clear I didn't mean that anything that Antonacci wrote was affected by his biases. I merely took note of the possibility. Where Antonacci made claims that I had seen primary or good sources for I didn't even think his biases were relevant. Where he made claims that I had to trust him that he had reasonably characterized the work of others I was willing to acknowledge the possibility that his biases may have colored his interpretations of the evidence.
- Sounds reasonable.

davefoc said:
I think most of the above questions arise because the intent of my post wasn't as clear as it might have been. As I noted above I believe the arguments against the invisible patch theory even without 1) the chemical homogeneity arguments and 2) the banding arguments are very powerful and perhaps sufficient for a conclusion that the invisible patch theory is bogus. What I was looking for was proof for two other lines of argument that the invisible patch theory was bogus. 3) The trace element analysis argument put forth by Dinwar and 4) the banding argument which I think I first saw in Antonacci's paper. The banding argument looks to be a particularly strong argument if it is true (and I think the image I included suggests that it is). 5) Even if one believes that an invisible patch is possible, could a patch be done so as that the varying opacity of the threads of the reweave line up with the threads of the unpatched area?
- 5 more issues I need to address -- 9 altogether.
- This will take awhile, but I'll try to answer them all, one at a time.
- I'll be back.

--- Jabba
 
Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

Dave,
- I'm going to be writing to people for help. Do you mind if I quote your issues?
--- Jabba
 
Dave,
- See below.
--- Jabba
- Sounds reasonable to me.

- Good points. I'll see what I can do for answers.

- Sounds reasonable.

- 5 more issues I need to address -- 9 altogether.
- This will take awhile, but I'll try to answer them all, one at a time.
- I'll be back.

--- Jabba

Ahh, more tap dancing around the issues. Instead of answering, more hold up. What else to expect.

Dave,
- I'm going to be writing to people for help. Do you mind if I quote your issues?
--- Jabba

Now this is just the best so far. Not only do you want to have Dave to take the blame for your failures, as you already openly told us, but you also want others to come up with "answers". Probably so that you can blame Dave for their failures as well?

How long are supposedly into this topic? 20something years? If so, you have obviously wasted 20 years of your life. After all, it's pretty clear that in all these years you completely failed to prepare yourself for even the most simplest questions.

What a hoot....
 
Prediction

As a lurker, I predict that Jabba won't answer any of Dave's points, he will just continue to waffle, and in 10 pages or more he will go back to stating that the invisible patch is possible.
 
As a lurker, I predict that Jabba won't answer any of Dave's points, he will just continue to waffle, and in 10 pages or more he will go back to stating that the invisible patch is possible.
Just like he's done in the past when outher points he's made have been debunked.
 
- In my next post, I’ll try to take up where I left off.

--- Jabba


Waffling, prevaricating, posting silly abstracts of what you might put in your next silly abstract?

Why not try something new?


Dave,
- See below.
--- Jabba
- Sounds reasonable to me.

- Good points. I'll see what I can do for answers.

- Sounds reasonable.

- 5 more issues I need to address -- 9 altogether.
- This will take awhile, but I'll try to answer them all, one at a time.
- I'll be back.

--- Jabba


Quelle surprise.
 
- Good points. I'll see what I can do for answers.


- 5 more issues I need to address -- 9 altogether.
- This will take awhile, but I'll try to answer them all, one at a time.
- I'll be back.

--- Jabba

Instead of saying you will see what you can do for answers, and noting how many issues you need to address, and telling us it will take awhile (we know that form recent experience) and assuring us you will be back, just do the bloody answers!
 
3) The trace element analysis argument put forth by Dinwar
Just to clarify something: I was referencing a discussion earlier in the thread. I've not actually seen those references; I've merely seen that this issue hasn't been addressed.
 
Dave,
- I'm going to be writing to people for help. --- Jabba


How many times have you said that you are seeking extra help? It must be dozens of times now!

What do you need help with? Either you do have a genuine independent science paper disputing the C14, or else you don't ... and you have already admitted that you most definitely do NOT have any such paper.

You simply don’t have any genuine answer to that. And it’s certainly not an answer to say you will be yet again "seeking more help".
 
How can someone be convinced that there are good reasons to doubt a piece of peer-reviewed science conducted under more scrutiny than any other such experiment has ever been subjected to, and yet not know what those reasons are without consulting someone else? :confused:
 
How can someone be convinced that there are good reasons to doubt a piece of peer-reviewed science conducted under more scrutiny than any other such experiment has ever been subjected to, and yet not know what those reasons are without consulting someone else? :confused:

I asked that question about 3 months ago. I'm yet to receive a reply.
 
Carbon Dating - Reweaving?

Dave,

- I’ve asked for some help re most of your questions (I paraphrased them rather than quoted them, but then realized that it should be perfectly all right to simply provide a link to this thread and page.)
- But then, I don’t think that I need outside help on one of your questions, and I need YOUR help on two more -- all copied below. I think that I can answer the first one by myself, but I’ll need some elaboration from you in order to answer, or have answered, the other two.

1. I think the ad hoc nature of the invisible patch claim is highly suspicious which suggests that the basis of the claim is just wishful thinking by shroud authenticity supporters.
2. the chemical homogeneity arguments
3.The trace element analysis argument put forth by Dinwar…

--- Jabba
 
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I'm sure in a few days Jabba will respond to you saying he'll have an answer for you ... later.


Tricked us! Not that it's ever going to get us anywhere, but the speed and efficiency of Jabba's prevarication is definitely improving. The turnaround time between asking a question and receiving a non-answer will be down to mere minutes before long.
 
Jabba said:
3.The trace element analysis argument put forth by Dinwar…
This is NOT MY CLAIM. I DID NOT put it forward. I AM NOT the originator of the claim--I merely reference it.

Since you are unwilling or incapable of looking through the thread to find the original argument, I'll do the work for you: Here is the post I keep referring to, which includes the link to the study and a quote of the highlights.

Please stop getting this wrong. This is important. Your insistence on asserting that I put forward the argument opens the door for you to demand I defend it, and to dismiss it (dishonestly, but with the appearance of rationality) if I can't. I'm NOT putting it forward--I'm merely reminding you of an argument you've never addressed. It's up to you to read that argument and understand it.

It's also a matter of honesty. I've never claimed that it was my argument, and in fact I've stated repeatedly that it's not mine, I'm merely referencing it. If you can't get something that simple correct, what hope do you have of getting something as complex as a detailed archaeological analysis right?

- I’ve asked for some help re most of your questions
While I'm in no way disparaging asking for help when needed, I do have to wonder why someone who's spent 20 years studying the shroud has to ask for help for extremely basic questions. We're not talking about extremely obscure analyses that no one's ever heard of; we're talking basic, good archaeological practices.
 
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