German court bans circumcision of young boys

[jdp]

You really have no way of knowing whether any given person has "a viable reason" or not unless you have a conversation about it.

If you're calling cauterized noses and snipped tonsils and extracted wisdom teeth "a form of mutilation" too, at least you're being consistent. Are you? Evidence?

If I look mutilated to you, you have different standards than anyone who's ever seen me, but that's okay. I might not think you look like much either.

Circumcision is one of those things that I would expect that there was a therapeutic reason for though, the same with tonsils and wisdom teeth. Now you keep bringing up tonsils, and I don't know how old you are, but they are rarely removed anymore unless there is a clear need. Wisdom teeth are still a little hit and miss but usually there is a documented need too and I believe even for those we are moving closer to therapeutic need. So to be honest, I don't see how these comparisons fit.

 

[zeggman]

*eyeroll*

Drama, drama, silly little jab, drama. I said nothing about the aesthetics of circumcised penis. The term 'mutilation' doesn't care if the end result is pretty or not.

Sure, it's just an unfortunate artifact of English that it happens to be synonymous with "disfigure".

And calling to mind that unfortunate artifact has nothing to do with why you are so keen to use the word.

Liar.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

You really have no way of knowing whether any given person has "a viable reason" or not unless you have a conversation about it.

If you're calling cauterized noses and snipped tonsils and extracted wisdom teeth "a form of mutilation" too, at least you're being consistent. Are you? Evidence?

If I look mutilated to you, you have different standards than anyone who's ever seen me, but that's okay. I might not think you look like much either.

My nose was cauterized when I was young because my mother found me asleep surrounded by a pool of blood from my nose and didn't want it to happen again. Stupid reason, right?

My wisdom teeth were extracted because they were coming in sideways and causing me pain. Again, ridiculous.

I didn't have my tonsils removed, and I suffered from chronic infections until I was eighteen.

My penis, however, was circumcised because everyone told my mother that that's what you're supposed to do, for some unknown reason.

ETA: BTW, if I concede that your penis looks just wonderful, will you stop talking about it? I'm sure it's beautiful. Frame it for posterity and move on.

 

[zeggman]

Except that those tonsils are snipped and those wisdom teeth extracted for valid medical reasons.

Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. Unless you were a consulting physician, you probably don't have an informed opinion.

Is it mutilation if there was no valid medical reason, but something else if there was?

Circumcision, in the vast majority of cases, not. All those medical "reasons" - debunked though they are - are really only attempts at post-hoc justification.

Again, is it mutilation if there was no valid medical reason, and something else if there was?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Sure, it's just an unfortunate artifact of English that it happens to be synonymous with "disfigure".

And calling to mind that unfortunate artifact has nothing to do with why you are so keen to use the word.

Liar.

Does your penis look the same as an uncircumcised penis? No? Then you've been disfigured. It doesn't mean it looks horrible and monstrous, it means it looks different, because it is.

Be careful about calling people liars.

 

[mutile]

Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. Unless you were a consulting physician, you probably don't have an informed opinion.

Is it mutilation if there was no valid medical reason, but something else if there was?

Again, is it mutilation if there was no valid medical reason, and something else if there was?

The practice is abhorrent whatever you call it.

 

[zeggman]

Circumcision is one of those things that I would expect that there was a therapeutic reason for though, the same with tonsils and wisdom teeth. Now you keep bringing up tonsils, and I don't know how old you are, but they are rarely removed anymore unless there is a clear need. Wisdom teeth are still a little hit and miss but usually there is a documented need too and I believe even for those we are moving closer to therapeutic need. So to be honest, I don't see how these comparisons fit.

I'm just focusing on the double standard that the foreskin fetishists have.

I think there was probably no medical reason to remove my tonsils or wisdom teeth, so was I mutilated when they were removed? Is anyone using that term when speaking about unnecessary tonsillectomies and extractions, or is the term only applicable to circumcisions?

And if "unnecessary" is what tips us in to mutilation territory, it must follow that a circumcision which was performed for some medical reason is not a mutilation.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Again, is it mutilation if there was no valid medical reason, and something else if there was?

No. It's still mutilation, just like removing a gangrenous limb would be mutilation. Are you seriously equating medical procedures with circumcision done for no other reason than a parent's aesthetic preference?

You are once again creating false analogies that even you don't agree with to avoid the real issue. Everyone here sees through your act, so you can drop the wounded drama queen approach, you're the only one who appreciates it.

 

[mutile]

I'm just focusing on the double standard that the foreskin fetishists have.

So while babies are being abused you choose to focus on labels. Classy.

 

[zeggman]

Does your penis look the same as an uncircumcised penis? No? Then you've been disfigured. It doesn't mean it looks horrible and monstrous, it means it looks different, because it is.

Be careful about calling people liars.

Does your harelip look the same after it's been joined? No? Then you've been disfigured.

Do your breasts look the same after they've been augmented? No? Then you've been disfigured.

Disfigured does imply monstrous and horrible. Stop lying, liar.

 

[zeggman]

No. It's still mutilation, just like removing a gangrenous limb would be mutilation. Are you seriously equating medical procedures with circumcision done for no other reason than a parent's aesthetic preference?

So why aren't you calling tonsillectomies mutilations? Double standard?

 

[zeggman]

So while babies are being abused you choose to focus on labels. Classy.

If circumcision is abuse then cauterizing noses is abuse, and removing tonsils is abuse.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

I'm just focusing on the double standard that the foreskin fetishists have.

I think there was probably no medical reason to remove my tonsils or wisdom teeth, so was I mutilated when they were removed? Is anyone using that term when speaking about unnecessary tonsillectomies and extractions, or is the term only applicable to circumcisions?

And if "unnecessary" is what tips us in to mutilation territory, it must follow that a circumcision which was performed for some medical reason is not a mutilation.

I love that you call us fetishists when you've talked about the appearance of your penis more than anyone else by far.

Of course mistakes are made and medical procedures are done rashly and sometimes unnecessarily. If you would like to start a thread about unnecessary medical procedures, I'll join in and probably agree with you.

However, this thread is about circumcision, which is done for no medical reason most of the time. Would you like to address that, or throw out some other arguments that skirt and evade all the points we bring up? Any more strawmen or tu quoque arguments you haven't thought of yet?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

So why aren't you calling tonsillectomies mutilations? Double standard?

Fine, tonsillectomies are also mutilations.

Care to get back to the OP sometime this century?

 

[zeggman]

ETA: BTW, if I concede that your penis looks just wonderful, will you stop talking about it? I'm sure it's beautiful. Frame it for posterity and move on.

If you stop saying it's mutilated, I'll stop saying it isn't.

 

[Ryokan]

If circumcision is abuse then cauterizing noses is abuse, and removing tonsils is abuse.

Dude, you're getting more and more hysterical. Are you quite all right?

I feel like yet again mentioning that the latter two are done for medical reasons, while the snipping bits off babies without anesthesia is done purely for the heck of it. That's sort of where the difference is.

 

[mutile]

If circumcision is abuse then cauterizing noses is abuse, and removing tonsils is abuse.

So inflicting pain on a baby is not abuse as long as it doesn't permanently disfigure, so you have no problem with parents pricking babies with pins just for fun.

 

[zeggman]

However, this thread is about circumcision, which is done for no medical reason most of the time. Would you like to address that, or throw out some other arguments that skirt and evade all the points we bring up?

If there is no medical reason for it, then you should be persuading doctors and parents that the risks of complications make the procedure inadvisable.

Calling it "mutilation" after the fact doesn't do that. Calling it "dangerous and unnecessary" before the fact does.

Does that help?

 

[Ryokan]

If you stop saying it's mutilated, I'll stop saying it isn't.

Can you at least understand how someone from a culture would view it? Imagine never having heard of circumcision before, and then you find out that there are people who cut off parts of they baby boy's penis, just because they think it looks nicer and because everyone else they know do it. Can you manage to put yourself in that position, so that you can begin to understand where I'm coming from?

I don't believe I've used the m-word in this thread, but I've seen circumcised men in, umm, certain types of videos. I'm sure yours is as nice as you make it out to be, but many of them have obvious scarring, and I can't fathom why people do this to their boys. And after a debate on it started in my country, after a baby boy died here in May, I started reading up on it, and I read about all these horrible complications that can happen, about skin bridges and sunken penises and dysfunctional penises and all sorts of horrible things that can go wrong. Can you see if from where I'm sitting, why I would speak up against these practices?

 

[mutile]

Calling it "mutilation" after the fact doesn't do that. Calling it "dangerous and unnecessary" before the fact does.

Does that help?

There is no before or after the fact you sound like you think that everyone is personally interested in your penis rather than discussing the practice of circumcision.