Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[BenBurch]

...

He needs the gun grab.

Which nobody saw.


And even if there was a gun grab, if the grab was because he brandished it, his defense disappears.

 

[Dancing David]

My ignore lists assists me in completing this task.

Mine too.

 

[Rare Truth]

Which nobody saw.


And even if there was a gun grab, if the grab was because he brandished it, his defense disappears.

I still can't get over GZ saying he forgot he even HAD a gun, until TM slid his miraculously unbloodied hand down Z's shirt and jacket.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Be assured: Frank Taaffe will be playing a part in this case.

Expect to see him on the witness stand.

Do you think he'll testify before or after Elvis?

 

[KatieG]

Do you think he'll testify before or after Elvis?

Sorry, Elvis has left the building

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Be assured: Frank Taaffe will be playing a part in this case.

Expect to see him on the witness stand.

What part will he be playing ?
What will he testify about ?
How will he be relevant to the prosecutions case ?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Sorry, Elvis has left the building

Look closely Katie, he's right below you .

 

[skepteen314]

You believe Zimmerman called the police so they'd get there for the murder he planned on committing?

No. Based upon his comments, I had assumed he had planned to call the police in order to not to let the"@$&$@--"(implying Trayvon) get away with who knows what based upon his logic as well as some incident unknown to the public created Zimmerman's distrust in the Sanford Police Department and led him to follow Trayvon for whatever reason.

 

[Unabogie]

You say that again and again and again as if it's a fact, one that you are dead certain of, and evidently think should be obvious to everyone else. But it's not a fact, which is what makes this case so challenging to know what really happened. Most of his story is not remarkable nor unbelievable.

Here are the details that I find unusual and or concern me, but none would be great enough for me to vote guilty for murder 2 based on the evidence I've seen so far.

1. TM telling him "you're going to die tonight".
2. GZ saying he thought TM was going for his gun. My suspicion is that TM never knew he had a gun.
3, GZ telling the neighbor he was beating me, as opposed to "he was trying to kill me".
4. Whether the wounds are bad enough to justify a claim of self-defense is a tough one and I'd say we are right on the grey area. If this was a fist fight in a bar they weren't enough. But what if GZ had actually had this fight with a criminal who attacked him outside in the dark? After all, that's what GZ believed at that moment. That's how we have to think about it and in that instance I think it's border line. (I'm talking about how we have to evaluate it legally if we believe his story)
5. His willingness to allow the court to be mislead makes me think he'd be OK with adding some embellishments or lying to the police to strengthen his self-defense claim.
6. Minor concerns about how DeeDee's testimony conflicts, minor because until I hear her cross examined I have serious doubts about her testimony.

Regardless of above I think that even if he is telling the truth in all regards that he acted carelessly and unwisely, especially considering that he was armed.

You know, I appreciate this post. And while I don't actually expect everyone to agree with me, I do personally find his story to be ludicrous. But again, I appreciate your post.

Here are some other items which I think don't make sense to me.

1. The circling of the car. Not only does this not make sense in terms of behavior: why would Trayvon even do this? According to George, he had already gotten away. He told DeeDee he was scared of this guy. So Trayvon makes it to safety, but then menacingly returns to approach the car in order to circle it? But then it also contradicts the NEN call. In that call, you can hear the start of the conversation, and George says the kid is around FT's house and he, George, parked at the clubhouse to make his call. A minute later, he says the kid is coming to check him out with his hands in his waistband. That cannot be true. It's a 4 minute walk to the T. That part is just not credible. Either he wasn't parked at the clubhouse as he said, or he made up the circling part. Either way, he's lying about something here.
2. One punch, then down to the ground. Again, in his first two interviews, he claimed with certainty that he was hit once, hit the ground, falling backwards, and then was straddled and pummeled. He says he was hit 30 times and had his head bashed against the ground repeatedly, and he never claims to have gotten up. So how is it that the body is 55 feet to the south?
3. He claims Trayvon tried to smother him. Yet on the 911 call where you can hear screaming, it never sounds muffled. Also, Trayvon, as far as we know, had none of his blood on his hands. Cue people who will nitpick that it's just fingernails, etc, but all of the public tests say he didn't have blood there. How do you grab and smother and punch a bloody head and get none of it on your hands?
4. He claims he only got out of the car for an address. Yet the address was clearly right there to his right. In the walkthrough, he says "because that's the back of the houses" while looking to his left, while to his right, there's a row of houses with clearly marked addresses. That part just isn't credible to me.
5. He admitted on the tape that he followed Trayvon, yet later lied and said he wasn't. You believe that?
6. Staying on the phone while planning his attack. According to George and DeeDee, we know that Trayvon stayed on the phone until the altercation began. Why did Trayvon keep talking with his friend if he was preparing a surprise assault? Why not hang up the phone, put it in his pocket (it was found on the ground, not in his pants) and pick up a weapon or something? Why keep talking on the phone, if you're trying to hide in the bushes?

And then finally, no one can ever explain WHY Trayvon would attack an older man who was scaring him. We know George's *possible* motives in detaining him: he was fed up with ******** that always get away. He was in the process of helping the police catch Trayvon. He was cussing at the dispatcher. He was armed. He was running. He sounded intoxicated to me (in the later interview, his voice is totally different). But what about Trayvon? Would that be the normal flow of his actions? Coming home from the store, someone stalks him, he runs. So where in that does he decide to become the hunter? Why? Is there a history of that from him? His parents sure don't think so. As Serino said, he was a kid with a future.

If evidence had come out that Trayvon had exhibited this kind of aggression before, I'd look at the case differently. If the defense can show that attacking George was in Trayvon's nature, I might change my mind. But knowing what we know about George, I'd say rash shoving and grabbing is right in line with how he was acting and what his history is. It fits right in, while Trayvon would have to have acted OUT of character. That's why I find his story ridiculous. Maybe if he just told what really happened it would be better for him, but the story he told is not the truth.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

ok. Now I get it. My interpretation of his comments during the initial phone call led me to believe he was going to kill Martin then and there. What is stopping this from being a conviction?

No. Based upon his comments, I had assumed he had planned to call the police in order to not to let the"@$&$@--"(implying Trayvon) get away with who knows what based upon his logic as well as some incident unknown to the public created Zimmerman's distrust in the Sanford Police Department and led him to follow Trayvon for whatever reason.

You appear to be holding two different, incompatible ideas. That he both called the police to stop TM from getting away and intended to kill him.

 

[Unabogie]

What part will he be playing ?
What will he testify about ?
How will he be relevant to the prosecutions case ?

I think there is speculation that Taffe called George to report the kid, which is why George went out to look for him. I don't know of any evidence for this.

But if they did have contact prior to the NEN call, wouldn't that show up on phone logs somewhere?

So my question to you is: if Frank called George a few minutes before the incident, what would that mean to you (well aside from you having to admit they are actually friends)



But I don't think this is true. I don't see Taffe as being involved *that night*.

 

[Unabogie]

By the way, here is George's written statement. Presumably, this isn't just misremembering or misspeaking, since he wrote it all down.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/22/us/21george-zimmerman-transcript.html

Notice that he clearly says he was punched once, went down, then Trayvon jumped on top of him. Notice he lies and says the dispatcher asked him for an address so he got out of the car just to find one, which we know if not true since he admitted to the dispatcher that he was following Trayvon, and the dispatcher only mentions an address *after* George stops running.

So read that through and explain how that fits the NEN call and the location of the body?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think there is speculation that Taffe called George to report the kid, which is why George went out to look for him. I don't know of any evidence for this.

Yes, there is. That is why I threw that into my theory. Which is just as impossible to disprove as yours, right ?

But if they did have contact prior to the NEN call, wouldn't that show up on phone logs somewhere?

Not every call takes place on cell phones. Were their house phone records requested as well ? If not, probably another nail in the coffin of the incompetent SPD.

So my question to you is: if Frank called George a few minutes before the incident, what would that mean to you (well aside from you having to admit they are actually friends)

If there was evidence FT called GZ within a few hours of 7pm that evening I would stop and lend credence to all the FT theories. And give serious consideration to the idea that they were friends at all, much less best friends.

But I don't think this is true. I don't see Taffe as being involved *that night*.

Nope, not at all.

 

[Rare Truth]

Frances Robles ‏@RoblesHerald
Documents say Zimmerman went to one of his police interviews with an Air Marshal

Wah-huh??

 

[Dan O.]

Whatever the perceived threat, it still has to fall into the 'deadly' category to justify a deadly response.

I happen to be especially skeptical about the *imminent* death of GZ from being punched. No doubt he was attacked, no doubt he was injured, no doubt he would have been justified in returning the amount of force needed to stop the punches...
Big doubt that shooting would be justified in that scenario.

He needs the gun grab.

This could very well be a point where George is reasonably in fear for his life.

But I noticed earlier how you try to stop the clock there and roll the rest up into a single event:

The legal standard for self defense is the thing that would stop a conviction...

It basically requires the prosecution to prove a negative (that the killer *wasn't* in fear at the moment he began to draw and shoot) beyond a reasonable doubt.

It seems that you are quite aware that between the point in time where George could be reasonably in fear for his life and the point where he actually shoots Trayvon, there is another point where George has ahold of his gun. why do you try to skip past this point?

 

[GWCarver]

This particular conspiracy theory has been launched by others. I was asking if there's any evidence supporting it. If, say, neighbors saw GZ parked in the area that he said he was just driving by on the way to the store -- and so far no one has made such a claim -- it might put subsequent events in a different light.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8418727&postcount=1464

It's always hard to prove a negative, but there is no evidence thus far to support any Zimmerman co-conspirators. Taaffe did an interview with a local TV station and showed the fight occurring on the wrong sidewalk, so whatever he knew would appear to be second hand and misunderstood, at least at the time he did the interview.

But, conspiracy theorists will say he just lied about where the fight took place to hide his guilty knowledge. So, that is why evidence is required.

 

[Unabogie]

Yes, there is. That is why I threw that into my theory. Which is just as impossible to disprove as yours, right ?

This is my theory? When just a few lines down I say that it's not?

Not every call takes place on cell phones. Were their house phone records requested as well ? If not, probably another nail in the coffin of the incompetent SPD.

Not everyone has house phones.

If there was evidence FT called GZ within a few hours of 7pm that evening I would stop and lend credence to all the FT theories. And give serious consideration to the idea that they were friends at all, much less best friends.

Right. I was just making fun of your insistence that they didn't know each other prior to this incident.

Nope, not at all.

Yep. So we've cracked the case and can stop arguing?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This is my theory? When just a few lines down I say that it's not?

No , your theory that you put forth last night. With the part that you made up about attempting to detain TM. We discussed it last night ?

Not everyone has house phones.

Until you prove GZ and FT do not have a house phones, it's a viable theory.

Right. I was just making fun of your insistence that they didn't know each other prior to this incident.

I understand. I didn't say they didn't know each other. I said they were not more than neighborhood acquaintances.

Yep. So we've cracked the case and can stop arguing?

Let's not be too hasty

 

[Bob001]

.....
2. GZ saying he thought TM was going for his gun. My suspicion is that TM never knew he had a gun.
.....

Just a question here. Do we know what kind of holster GZ used? Some are designed for quick access, and some, like the inside-the-waistband variety, are designed more for concealment. That might have something to do with what TM could see in the dark. And if TM was reaching for the gun, where was he reaching? If he took one hand off GZ to lean forward and reach toward his belt, that might have been an opportunity for GZ to take control of the fight.

 

[Unabogie]

Just a question here. Do we know what kind of holster GZ used? Some are designed for quick access, and some, like the inside-the-waistband variety, are designed more for concealment. That might have something to do with what TM could see in the dark. And if TM was reaching for the gun, where was he reaching? If he took one hand off GZ to lean forward and reach toward his belt, that might have been an opportunity for GZ to take control of the fight.

This is something that bothers me as well. If he's being straddled, wouldn't that block the gun away from both of them? Wouldn't the "straddler's" left leg be right on top of the gun?