General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Wrong. Primo Levi was deported to Auschwitz as a Jew, and his transport was subjected to a selection on arrival as happened with other Jewish transports. He was selected for forced labour and barely survived illnesses brought about by that forced labour; he also survived selections inside the camp (which were targeted only at Jews) which would have sent him to the gas chambers. He was gravely ill when Monowitz was evacuated, and chose to avoid being sent on death marches and was then liberated. He was very much a victim of the Holocaust.

LOL, by god you are ignorant. Primo Levi is regarded as one of the greatest writers of the 20th Century not just for his Auschwitz memoirs but also for his science writing. It's fair to say that in Europe, he is probably the best known memoirist of the Holocaust and extremely widely read.
LOL, by god you are ignorant.

How many times have we been told if a Jewish person couldn't work he was gassed, shot, or beaten to death?

So you tell us in one paragraph

barely survived illnesses
Then
he also survived selections inside the camp (which were targeted only at Jews) which would have sent him to the gas chambers.

So he was all better when he survived the selections?

He was gravely ill when Monowitz was evacuated

chose to avoid being sent on death marches


Tell us did the evil Germans kill sick Jewish people who couldn't work or not?


I'm pretty dam ill Herr SS guard I'll be hanging here at Monowitz. You just go ahead.
 
And another in the continuing series of logical fallacies: "Argument from Ignorance."
So he was all better when he survived the selections?
No, why would you think that?

Tell us did the evil Germans kill sick Jewish people who couldn't work or not?
Yes, the ones they could catch. The ones who avoided being found out, survived. It's amazing how the fear of death can give you an incentive to pretend you're healthy.

If you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
 
Besides the Russians couldn't figure out how to wind a watch. How would they know what to do with a camera?

I have a vague recollection that there used to be a group who believed that Slavs were primitive subhumans. Weren't too keen about the Jews, either. I wonder what happened to them.
 
Besides the Russians couldn't figure out how to wind a watch. How would they know what to do with a camera?

Sergy Eisenstien introduced the jump cut into modern cinema. The first Russian feature film was Stenka Razin (1908). The first American feature film was Oliver Twist (1912). You probably think Kirk Douglas (И́сер Даниело́вич) was a real American cowboy.
 
I have a vague recollection that there used to be a group who believed that Slavs were primitive subhumans. Weren't too keen about the Jews, either. I wonder what happened to them.

Is that the US Science of Eugenics which also had developed the concept of the blond and blue eyed master race? In which's "Eugenics Weekly" the German laws of race hygiene were published 5 months before they were released in Germany; signed by Hitler and frenetically applauded by US Eugenicists?

http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html

When the 3 international journals of Eugenics were renamed after 1945,the minutes of 5 world congresses (London, Berlin,Rotterdam,2 x New York) officially forgotten and the whole science disappeared under a cloud it really would be interesting to know what happened for example to Charles M.Goethe; who said in 1934 to a US college:"You will be interested to know, that your work has played a powerful part in shaping the opinions of the group of intellectuals who are behind Hitler in this epoch-making program. Everywhere I sensed that their opinions have been tremendously stimulated by American thought.…I want you, my dear friend, to carry this thought with you for the rest of your life, that you have really jolted into action a great government of 60 million people." or what the sponsor of Josef Mengele's twin research,the Rockefeller foundation. did with his results.

One info I have:The last law of race hygiene for the protection of the Aryan race which was abandoned was that of Sweden - in 1974. Released in 1928.

http://www.economist.com/node/155244

It proves the necessity of constant updating the pool of available scientific knowledge - even in historical sciences. That process is called "revision". A science without "revisionists" is bogus science.
 
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They started with a religious number, 6 million, and filled in the blanks with numbers until they roughly "fit." The numbers of Jewish people killed from individual countries that historians use build a 6 million total are, save the 3 million number from Poland, are absurdly skewed.
And yet, cm offers nothing but his say-so that this is the case...
The 3 million Polish number is absurd. The 3 million alleged gassings of Jewish people is also absurd.
What's absurd is that you believe that your saying this makes it so.
Every time a number was found to be positively untrue adjustments were made to keep the total of Jewish people killed at 6 million.
Ummmm. No.

Hilberg had one of the first estimates @ 5.1 million.

But you'd actually have to not ignore the history you're trying to rewrite (ignore, since this fact has been pointed out to you before) to acknowledge this.
The key that breaks the Holocaust's back is the gas chamber and gassing van fabrications.
... if you ignore the the EG and general abuse and deprivation the Jews were subject to...
The labor and associated cremations were impossible to keep up with rate of alleged gassings. There just wasn't enough time in a day.
And yet, you've never even tried to show your math on this.
Then there is testimony of Zyklon-B killing 2000 people in a half hour.
And there is the eyewitness testimony that said the Zyklon-B victims were
... were? You missed something here.

And who offered this "testimony" and in what context?
Then there is the van/truck exhaust fumes killing 50 or more Jewish people at a time fabrication. And again the labor wasn't available to "clean up" and dispose of the bodies.
And again, nothing but your own credulity to support this.
The above impossibilities are why Ike and Churchill and de Gaulle never mentioned gassing in their post war writings.
No, as has been pointed out and pointed out and pointed out, they were never personally in teh death camps, and what they wrote were accounts of their personal experiences.

Not to mention that they did mention the Holocaust in general terms.

Not to mention that more than half of the victims of the Holocaust were *not* killed in gas chambers.
Which means that about 3 million Jewish people never arrived at the camps.
No, *that* three million were shot en masse, or killed by other means. The *other* 2.1 million were sent to camps.
The Majdanek death count has changed from 1.5 million(1945) to 350,000(1960's) to 35,000(2007) but the 6 million figure remains.
You misspelled "5.1 million", and neglect the teeny tiny fact that the overall death toll was never calculated by adding up death tolls from individual camps.

Is Matt still drinking Sterno?
Blah blah blah. If deniers are so "right", why is it that not a single one can offer an alternative narrative which accounts for all of the extant evidence?
Death from Hydrogen Cyanide (HCl) poisoning i.e. ZyklonB, causes the body to turn a cherry red color, yet testimonies claim the bodies were blue, yellow, and other colors.
From Toxicology Principles for the Industrial Hygienist
Due to the circulation of well-oxygenated blood, the skin and organs mayappear "cherry-red." Hoxever, this is inconsistent and may not be obvious.
And *do* actually quote these testimonies referring to HCN poisoning, which mention the other colours? Because Berg usually whines about CO poisoning from diesel fumes, which (same source)
In the case of CO poisoning, the term "cyanotic" refers to the "bluish" color of the patient...

I'll give your post of 6 for effort, but the repeated lies are really hurting your overall score...
 
He was gravely ill when Monowitz was evacuated

chose to avoid being sent on death marches

Can anyone please explain me the logic why someone intending to kill a whole population evacuates that population from the danger of approaching war, sparing the most seriously ill, letting them the choice in order to avoid death by exhaustion? Wouldn't a killer chase the most seriously ill out of their beds first and bring all others CLOSER to the war zone in order to INCREASE the likelihood of being killed? Isn't that what makes a killer a killer?
 
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Can anyone please explain me the logic why someone intending to kill a whole population evacuates that population from the danger of approaching war, sparing the most seriously ill, letting them the choice in order to avoid death by exhaustion? Wouldn't a killer chase the most seriously ill out of their beds first and bring all others CLOSER to the war zone in order to INCREASE the likelihood of being killed? Isn't that what makes a killer a killer?

Right after you tell us which war was approaching Italy when Levi was handed over to the Nazis, and document how seriously ill he was at that time?

Then we can explain, again, the concept of slave labour and its perceived benefits to the Reich.
 
Can anyone please explain me the logic why someone intending to kill a whole population evacuates that population from the danger of approaching war, sparing the most seriously ill, letting them the choice in order to avoid death by exhaustion? Wouldn't a killer chase the most seriously ill out of their beds first and bring all others CLOSER to the war zone in order to INCREASE the likelihood of being killed? Isn't that what makes a killer a killer?

It is hard to understand your point, especially when you quote this
He was gravely ill when Monowitz was evacuated

chose to avoid being sent on death marches
having to do with a period after the Final Solution had been suspended.

Leaving that little bit of confusion aside, Primo Levi was captured by the Italians, not the Germans, and the Italian fascists had a quirk, I guess you'd call it, in that they didn't go along with or exactly see the point of exterminating Jews, so your blether about intentions, evacuations, etc., is beside the point when it comes to the case you're discussing.

In point of fact, generally (a word you guys seem to struggle with) Jews not capable of work were chosen for immediate death. To take just two better-known examples of this pattern - the Gehsperre in Lodz September 1942 (notorious for Rumkowski's "Give Me Your Children" speech) and the pattern of selections at Birkenau. Generally. Look it up.
 
That's what you got out of all that?

See, this is what happens when one's position in a debate is not reached through evidence and reason but ideology: one _needs_ to be right because that's what ideology-driven people are. So, spot one word in a post that you think you can attack, and ignore the rest.
 
Can anyone please explain me the logic why someone intending to kill a whole population evacuates that population from the danger of approaching war, sparing the most seriously ill, letting them the choice in order to avoid death by exhaustion? Wouldn't a killer chase the most seriously ill out of their beds first and bring all others CLOSER to the war zone in order to INCREASE the likelihood of being killed? Isn't that what makes a killer a killer?

Almost 70 years ago your logical question was anticipated.

"There are mountains of evidence to the contrary and why do you hate Jews."
 
Right after you tell us which war was approaching Italy when Levi was handed over to the Nazis, and document how seriously ill he was at that time?

My question was a general question, not related to Primo Levi.


What is a "walking blockade" (Gehsperre)? The word for "curfew" is "Ausgangssperre".
 
Can anyone please explain me the logic why someone intending to kill a whole population evacuates that population from the danger of approaching war, sparing the most seriously ill, letting them the choice in order to avoid death by exhaustion? Wouldn't a killer chase the most seriously ill out of their beds first and bring all others CLOSER to the war zone in order to INCREASE the likelihood of being killed? Isn't that what makes a killer a killer?

It seems you missed the part about Primo Levi avoiding evacuation.

Look, in January 1945 the Nazi frontline in Poland collapsed because of a Soviet offensive. There were 67,000 prisoners in the Auschwitz complex, a reduced number from the highpoint in the summer since so many able-bodied prisoners had been shipped out to other camps. The factories working in the Auschwitz complex were still trying to produce things. The Nazis did not stop all work until the very last minute, because that would be a little too defeatist - the frontline was meant to hold.

So, when the order came to evacuate the camp, it came very late. The SS had to leave in a hurry, but took 60,000 prisoners with them. 7,000 were left behind before the SS had a chance to kill them.

Thus, what you're asking about is a question of expediency and contingency: however much the SS might have liked to have killed all the useless prisoners, their fear of the Soviets overrode your 'logic' completely.

One other thing: the crap you have read on denier sites about prisoners being given a choice is completely untrue. The SS ordered the prisoners out, succeeding in evacuating 89% of the inmates.

And once the SS started marching the prisoners to railheads, they started shooting prisoners who were too weak to march on, or who fell out on the way. That is why they're known as death marches.

The survivors of many of these marches, especially if unlucky enough to have to walk for days or even weeks, were often exhausted, and on arrival at a camp in Germany, were often too weak to work. That meant that they were often dumped into 'dying off camps' or zones in other KZs. Some were even gassed at Ravensbrueck and Mauthausen, where local SS authorities decided on their own initiative to use this tried and tested method. Other camps didn't have gas chambers, so simply let prisoners starve to death. That led to Belsen.

One last thing: Himmler suspended the formal Final Solution in November 1944. Part of that was him looking to the future and to create bargaining chips (however delusory) for negotiations with the Allies, part of that was a sense of having done as much of the job as was possible under the circumstances. So your question rests on a flawed premise, which is that the Nazis had one consistent policy that ran all the way up to May 8, 1945. They did not, and expecting them to have is completely un-historical.
 
So, when the order came to evacuate the camp, it came very late. The SS had to leave in a hurry, but took 60,000 prisoners with them. 7,000 were left behind before the SS had a chance to kill them.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Late? Late at night? Late for dinner?
 
I'll take this one. Nope. No genocide means there would be no major events of a genocide to be familiar with.

I'll take this one. We have long seen that you negate by incredulity, repetition, and ignorance. What I am after is MadMurx's objections: is his objection that the popular usage doesn't comport with his view of good German, and therefore the Gehsperre deportations from Lodz in September 1942, focusing at the outset on the elderly, the infirm, and children, didn't occur? Because he prefers one term over the one used at the time? Or what exactly was his point?
 
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