Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[triforcharity]

I won't be surprised if they say what I posted very early in the first thread...

Refresh my memory? (this is in regards to what GZ talked about when he took his CWP classes, and purchased his gun)

 

[crimresearch]

I believe the Feds were also searching for evidence that a civil rights crime was committed here, i.e. that this was a racially motivated murder by GZ the closet KKK member.

IIRC, the feds came in due to media and political outcry that the police did no investgation, or even conspired to cover up the murder of a black victim.

It should be obvious by now that those claims were wildly inaccurate.

I really don't recall an actual authoritative source being pinned down that GZ was the focus of suspicion in an active hate crimes investigation.

More like, 'We intend to make sure that any such crimes are investigated if they occured'.

If there wasn't enough for the state to charge 1st degree, I don't know where the feds would find the needed state of mind to sustain hate crimes.
And charging a federal 'conspiracy to deprive' pretty much needs more than one suspect... even if George did talk to himself a lot.

 

[crimresearch]

Refresh my memory? (this is in regards to what GZ talked about when he took his CWP classes, and purchased his gun)

Since it hasn't been released, I have no idea what GZ said... I have a good idea of what he may have *heard* when he took the class and hung around the range.

The old meme was 'If ya ever have to shoot a bad guy, be sure to drag their body onto your property, then the cops won't charge ya'.

That has since been replaced by 'If ya ever have to shoot a perp, yell really loud 'Stop!!! or 'Help!!, then tell the cops 'I was in fear for my life or great bodily harm'.

It isn't unheard of for the 'yelling before shooting' to be part of the practical drills in a gun course.

If GZ also went around repeating it so that witnesses remembered it, that adds to earlier assessments of him as his own worst enemy.

 

[tsig]

The question was 'when did Zimmerman claim that he thought Martin was going for the gun'?

That question has been answered definitively, I asked what is the point in re-asking it.
GZ made the claim when he made the claim, it's on the record.

Now *you* brought up the 'implied question' hidden assumption that there is some significance in Zimmerman's excited utterances at the scene, and specifically what he forgot to add..

Give the scientific body of research on memory, and the negative effect of stress and trauma on accuracy(as already gone over), what is legitimate to ask, is 'Where's the support that there is anything signficant about it?'.

Since his defense will turn on his recollection of events, trashing his ability to remember accurately would seem to be a losing strategy.

 

[crimresearch]

Since his defense will turn on his recollection of events, trashing his ability to remember accurately would seem to be a losing strategy.

Then perhaps you should stop doing that.

 

[triforcharity]

In regards to what he may have *heard* when he took the class and hung around the range.

No, not what GZ heard from others, this is in regards to what the gun store employees saw and heard from GZ.

The old meme was 'If ya ever have to shoot a bad guy, be sure to drag their body onto your property, then the cops won't charge ya'.

That has since been replaced by 'If ya ever have to shoot a perp, yell really loud 'Stop!!! or 'Help!!, then tell the cops 'I was in fear for my life or great bodily harm'.

It isn't unheard of for the 'yelling before shooting' to be part of the practical drills in a gun course.

I've been around the gun community for many years, and the only one that I head was the first. Maybe just because I hang around law abiding citizens, but I have never heard that. It matters not though. It wouldn't surprise me if this is said.

If GZ also went around repeating it so that witnesses remembered it, that adds to earlier assessments of him as his own worst enemy.

Absolutely. He really is his own worst enemy. His lying to the courts and hiding money certainly doesn't help him at all either.

 

[WildCat]

His statements. Please do not ask me to quote them. I found one on this page, purportedly from Witness 13, "this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him."

I'm not sure what else we should expect, other than anecdotal stuff. The kind of things people testify to in court. For example, if Zimmerman had been punched in the stomach or put in a headlock or any of a number of possible things that happen in fights that don't show up in photographs.

I seriously wonder what the conversation would be like here if there were other damage documented. What exactly is required before I can claim I've been beat up? So we don't have that. What we do have is physical evidence that seems to show, before the fatal shot, that GZ was losing the fight -- at least tallying the damage to a face against the damage to a finger.

Here's another hypothetical. Suppose GZ said he shot Trayvon in cold blood. Based solely on the physical evidence, could I ever prove he didn't?

No matter how much evidence is presented, truthers demand more.

 

[Dancing David]

You'll have to forgive some others here. Apparently you are required to be 100% up to date on this case, or else you'll be ridiculed and lambasted.

See my links to the Florida state statutes for further explanation.

Thank you for encouraging civility.

 

[Dancing David]

Thank you. I saw the link. I still disagree with Murder 2. There was implied premeditation when Zimmerman called whomever saying stuff about people.

Not really, this is where the language of common usage and legal usage will vary.

 

[WildCat]

So if his prior calls show a history of acting a certain way, that's evidence he acts that way.
If his prior calls show a history of not acting a certain way, that's evidence he snapped and finally acted that way.

If the WTC falls inside it's own footprint it's proof of inside job, because only a controlled demolition could be so precise.

If the WTC falls outside it's own footprint it's an inside job, because only explosives could send debris so far away.

 

[Dancing David]

IMO, GZ's biggest worry will be Federal, probably hate-crime, indictment.

Actually a fairly high bar, but you never know.

 

[skepteen314]

Now I get it...

Good. Here's the BIGGEST reason for not charging with M1.

Intent. It's difficult to prove intent, and in this case, it would be even more difficult. Dare I say impossible. They would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to kill TM when he got out of the truck. With him being on the phone with the cops before the shot was fired, severely damages any claim of intent.

ok. Now I get it. My interpretation of his comments during the initial phone call led me to believe he was going to kill Martin then and there. What is stopping this from being a conviction?

 

[crimresearch]

ok. Now I get it. My interpretation of his comments during the initial phone call led me to believe he was going to kill Martin then and there. What is stopping this from being a conviction?

The legal standard for self defense is the thing that would stop a conviction...

It basically requires the prosecution to prove a negative (that the killer *wasn't* in fear at the moment he began to draw and shoot) beyond a reasonable doubt.

And it's pretty hard to prove a negative, never mind the mind reading.

Unless they come up with some unknown hard evidence, the best guess is that they will try to attack Zimmerman's credibility... and even there, they will be restricted by the legal system.

 

[WildCat]

Thank you. I saw the link. I still disagree with Murder 2. There was implied premeditation when Zimmerman called whomever saying stuff about people.

Bolding and underlining doesn't make an argument by assertion legally sound.

Evidence?

 

[WildCat]

IMO, GZ's biggest worry will be Federal, probably hate-crime, indictment.

There's far less evidence of that than there is for the state charges.

 

[WildCat]

ok. Now I get it. My interpretation of his comments during the initial phone call led me to believe he was going to kill Martin then and there. What is stopping this from being a conviction?

You believe Zimmerman called the police so they'd get there for the murder he planned on committing?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No, the DOJ and FBI said at the beginning of the investigation that it would most likely be more than a year before they have any findings to release, which is not unusual.

I'd like to see a statement from a DOJ/FBI rep to back up that time frame, out of curiosity.

Not that I disbelieve they could drag it out that long, but it seems to be a ridiculous amount of time to take. It almost seems like they coud continually say' we're still invesitgating ... we don't know what we'll find tomorrow.'

You would think either they have something of not in the first few weeks, much less months.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

So if this were the scenario I thought happened...

So if it went down like the following, could anyone disprove it ? Is it just as likely as GZ version of events ?

GZ wasn't really on his way to the store. He was home, and his best friend in the community, Mr. Frank Taaffe called him at home, and let George know there was an 'undesireable' roaming the neighborhood, by his house. That's why GZ hopped in his truck.The whole 'going grocery shopping' was a lie. He couldn't have been going to the store, because he only had 50 cents on him !

Then GZ followed TM in his truck. Once TM ran, GZ got out of his truck, pulled out his gun and ran after him and chased him around behind the townhouses. That's why you have those witnesses who saw all the shadows running around. And TM was screaming for help becuase GZ was brandishing his firearm.

Then, GZ tripped while he was chasing TM, and fell into the bushes. One of the witnesses heard that too. That's how GZ cut his head. While near the bushes, thats when TM briefly got on top of GZ. But becuase GZ is so heavy, he was able to get the advantage on TM and stand up. That's when TM was about to get away, but GZ shot him from a few feet away, as they stood there. When he shot, the gun kicked back and broke his nose. TM fell forward on his face, and GZ quickly jumped on top of TM to finish him off.

Fits all the facts, yes ?

 

[triforcharity]

Thank you for encouraging civility.

My ignore lists assists me in completing this task.

 

[crimresearch]

So if this were the scenario I thought happened...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if it went down like the following, could anyone disprove it ? Is it just as likely as GZ version of events ?

GZ wasn't really on his way to the store. He was home, and his best friend in the community, Mr. Frank Taaffe called him at home, and let George know there was an 'undesireable' roaming the neighborhood, by his house. That's why GZ hopped in his truck.The whole 'going grocery shopping' was a lie. He couldn't have been going to the store, because he only had 50 cents on him !

Then GZ followed TM in his truck. Once TM ran, GZ got out of his truck, pulled out his gun and ran after him and chased him around behind the townhouses. That's why you have those witnesses who saw all the shadows running around. And TM was screaming for help becuase GZ was brandishing his firearm.

Then, GZ tripped while he was chasing TM, and fell into the bushes. One of the witnesses heard that too. That's how GZ cut his head. While near the bushes, thats when TM briefly got on top of GZ. But becuase GZ is so heavy, he was able to get the advantage on TM and stand up. That's when TM was about to get away, but GZ shot him from a few feet away, as they stood there. When he shot, the gun kicked back and broke his nose. TM fell forward on his face, and GZ quickly jumped on top of TM to finish him off.

Fits all the facts, yes ?

Everything but that much recoil from a Kel Tec 9... better stick to the tried and true, 'deliberately bashed his own face'.