Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

What were they associated with?


The what? How did that happen?


He fell down twice and hit his head?


Relevance?


The defense, or do you think he plead guilty?


Zimmerman isn't claiming self-defense?


So all those injuries and marks happened from a single fall? Was there a flight of stairs he fell down that isn't visible in any of the photos?


You just proved you are unable to answer the questions. Sadly this feat, like predicting sunrise tomorrow, doesn't win me the $1 million.

So no evidence to support your claim. That's what I thought. Thanks.

 

[WildCat]

I'll certainly acknowledge Martin punched Zimmerman once. I don't think that's in question.

So since you make a distinction between being punched once and being beat up, what evidence do you have to support the claim that Zimmerman was "beat up" as opposed to being punched once?

If a suspect in custody showed up at the police station with Zimmerman's injuries claiming brutality, and the cops said he "fell down", would that explanation satisfy you?

 

[WildCat]

So no evidence to support your claim. That's what I thought. Thanks.

I asked you a question, you ran away from it like a schoolgirl from a spider, and now you've turned my question into a "claim" that I refuse to answer?

Fascinating stuff!

 

[marplots]

I'll certainly acknowledge Martin punched Zimmerman once. I don't think that's in question.

So since you make a distinction between being punched once and being beat up, what evidence do you have to support the claim that Zimmerman was "beat up" as opposed to being punched once?

His statements. Please do not ask me to quote them. I found one on this page, purportedly from Witness 13, "this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him."

I'm not sure what else we should expect, other than anecdotal stuff. The kind of things people testify to in court. For example, if Zimmerman had been punched in the stomach or put in a headlock or any of a number of possible things that happen in fights that don't show up in photographs.

I seriously wonder what the conversation would be like here if there were other damage documented. What exactly is required before I can claim I've been beat up? So we don't have that. What we do have is physical evidence that seems to show, before the fatal shot, that GZ was losing the fight -- at least tallying the damage to a face against the damage to a finger.

Here's another hypothetical. Suppose GZ said he shot Trayvon in cold blood. Based solely on the physical evidence, could I ever prove he didn't?

 

[Mumbles]

Bag full of jewelry??? Was there really that much? Why do I not remember that?

about that jewelry...we have no real evidence of it at all, since it's only "a source" that says it exists, but according to the rumor mill, it consisted almost entirely of women's wedding bands. That strikes me as odd - it's the least likely type of jewelry to be left just lying around at home, and any other location means a breaking at either a workplace where jewelry must be removed, or at a jewelry store. But in either case, why just wedding bands? No necklaces, earrings, or the like? And none of this jewelry could be connected to any report of a theft?

There's really not much to do with this info, simply because it's so vague. Although, like others, I'm amused that this is proof that Martin was a violent crime boss, but hiding a passport and money is absolutely not evidence that Zimmerman was planning to flee the country.

 

[This is The End]

Since you continue to blatantly fabricate things I've never said, mischaracterize what was said, and pretend you can't see the repeated explanations, you've talked yourself out of any further responses.

If I am fabricating what you say, then clarify the claim! If you do not clarify the claim I can only assume I read it correctly.

 

[BenBurch]

The medical report indicates Zimmerman had two small cuts (.5 cm and 2 cm) on the back of his head and no significant head trauma.

What gives you the idea that he hit is head "over and over again"?

Head wounds often bleed like you had been murdered.

 

[bookworm]

What about when he pushed his ex-girlfriend and had a restraining order put on him? Oh, you believe his version of events over hers, right? And she also called the police to inform them that George is racist. So I guess she has told us two things about George that we can ignore.

This could also tell us that she is an angry, vengeful witch. Have you ever known a woman who is an instigator? Who will do all she can to aggravate her partner and then not even let him walk away? I've seen women in my neighborhood hang on their boyfriend's cars as they tried to drive away from a fight. So without knowing exact details of their relationship, it's not accurate at all to give any weight to either side.

 

[Dan O.]

I asked you a question, you ran away from it like a schoolgirl from a spider, and now you've turned my question into a "claim" that I refuse to answer?

Fascinating stuff!

No WildCat, you are loosing this debate because you are failing to acknowledge the actual position of your opponent. You keep repeating the same straw arguments and even resort to insults as above. This may earn you applause from within your own camp but it won't help settle anything.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Because it's the least believable scenario? Serino kept asking him why Trayvon would have attacked him, for a reason.

We can deduce TM attacked GZ because from his perspective GZ kept following him.

Because he lied about not following, he lied about being out of breath from running, he lied about where he confronted Trayvon, and there was too much time from when he told the dispatcher "OK" till the end of the call to believe he was walking back.

Of course they will. Since all of his "misremembering" just magically absolves him of all blame, it's a pretty logical deduction.

Well, since he is a known liar on trial for murder, why would we take his word over hers or anyone else's again?

Right. They contradict each other. Not usually a good thing for a defendant.

The jury will be able to weigh all the parts of his story that are corroborated by witnesses against the parts that it appears he is incorrect or lying about and decide. Clearly, if people in this thread can disagree, people on a jury can disagree and it's not a forgone conclusion for either side.

I think witness 6 is particularly compelling in backing the end of the fight, with TM on top of GZ, and GZ screaming for help. GZ account of witness 6 and his initial statement about GZ askign him for help are too similar to not be an accurate representation of what happened.

Because likely isn't a diagnosis?

But I explained that it is. It was diagnosed as a broken nose, because an xray won't change the treatment. Tell you what - you keep pretending the word 'likely' is important. I'm just going to call it broken, just like serino, just like MOM, etc.

A 50 pound weight difference won't sway anyone that it's unlikely George got completely manhandled by a kid?

When that 50 pounds makes him an obese short guy ? It doesn't sway me, YMMV.

Where do you get 50 feet from?

I made it up. If you disagree, you tell me how far you think he ran. I think he ran from the somewhere on the sidewalk west of the tee around the corner, out of site, and stopped. If he ran for 25 seconds he would have been home. So seriously, how far could he have actually ran to get all tuckered out ?

He has certainly gotten into altercations. That's a fact, isn't it?

But he was fed up because "those ******** always get away [....] out the back gate".

This time, he had had enough and went after the kid and tried to stop him.

So now the argument is all those prior calls just built up his anger until this one wasn't going to get away.

So if his prior calls show a history of acting a certain way, that's evidence he acts that way.
If his prior calls show a history of not acting a certain way, that's evidence he snapped and finally acted that way.

Can you take a step back and look at that argument a little more objectively and admit it may look a bit weak ?

Did you listen to those other calls? He called the cops on kids in the street, playing. He's a weird dude, with some serious issues.

Actually, this call didn't sound remarkably different from any of the others. Which I find to be reason to believe he didn't intend anything different this time than any of the other calls.

 

[Unabogie]

This could also tell us that she is an angry, vengeful witch. Have you ever known a woman who is an instigator? Who will do all she can to aggravate her partner and then not even let him walk away? I've seen women in my neighborhood hang on their boyfriend's cars as they tried to drive away from a fight. So without knowing exact details of their relationship, it's not accurate at all to give any weight to either side.

I've never had a restraining order put on me, have you? I don't have any angry vengeful witches looking to frame me for murder, either (which is what lying in a murder case would be).

So in conclusion, you believe the word of a known liar who has presented a shaky story over any witness who contradicts him. You don't believe DeeDee, and now you don't believe his ex.

 

[Unabogie]

We can deduce TM attacked GZ because from his perspective GZ kept following him.

George said he never followed him. Are you saying he did? Besides, as has been pointed out, that doesn't explain why he would ATTACK him. Maybe it would make sense to run away (which is what DeeDee says happened) but why attack a person who is scaring you? Especially for a kid with no history of violence? You have to show some sort of trigger for this. Do you believe he ran away, circled back around his car from the T, then hid in the bushes lying in wait to attack?

The jury will be able to weigh all the parts of his story that are corroborated by witnesses against the parts that it appears he is incorrect or lying about and decide. Clearly, if people in this thread can disagree, people on a jury can disagree and it's not a forgone conclusion for either side.

People in this thread appear to be the opposite of ideal jurors.

I think witness 6 is particularly compelling in backing the end of the fight, with TM on top of GZ, and GZ screaming for help. GZ account of witness 6 and his initial statement about GZ askign him for help are too similar to not be an accurate representation of what happened.

As OnlyTellsTruths points out, over and over, it doesn't matter whether or not parts of his story match. It matters whether his explanation of being attacked for no reason and then fearing for his life is believable. I don't think a witness who says he's not sure what he saw helps him in any way.

But I explained that it is. It was diagnosed as a broken nose, because an xray won't change the treatment. Tell you what - you keep pretending the word 'likely' is important. I'm just going to call it broken, just like serino, just like MOM, etc.

Fine.

When that 50 pounds makes him an obese short guy ? It doesn't sway me, YMMV.

204 pounds is 204 pounds. He sure had enough athleticism to go chasing "suspects".

I made it up. If you disagree, you tell me how far you think he ran. I think he ran from the somewhere on the sidewalk west of the tee around the corner, out of site, and stopped. If he ran for 25 seconds he would have been home. So seriously, how far could he have actually ran to get all tuckered out ?

George said he ran from the clubhouse, didn't he? Or do you still not see how in his call saying he was parked AT the clubhouse, and only went towards the T after Trayvon ran, means that none of his chase happened where he says it did?

So now the argument is all those prior calls just built up his anger until this one wasn't going to get away.

Isn't that what Frank Taffe said? He wasn't going to take it anymore?

So if his prior calls show a history of acting a certain way, that's evidence he acts that way.
If his prior calls show a history of not acting a certain way, that's evidence he snapped and finally acted that way.

His prior calls show a paranoid guy who calls the police whenever a black kid crosses his path. He was upset that the police weren't catching the ******** who always get away. He has a violent past. What's so hard to believe that he went after Trayvon in order to detain him, which cause the fight?

Can you take a step back and look at that argument a little more objectively and admit it may look a bit weak ?

I think it's exactly what happened.

Actually, this call didn't sound remarkably different from any of the others. Which I find to be reason to believe he didn't intend anything different this time than any of the other calls.

Does he cuss on the other calls? Call them ********? Say they always get away? Call them *********** punks?

Does he chase them on those calls like he does here?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

What evidence can you provide that Martin was "beating up George Zimmerman"?

witness 13
Zimmerman: "Ah, man this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him."

Officer Smith:
Zimmermnn nppeared to hAve a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face

Officer Ayala:
Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head

Officer Serino:
On 3/9/20121 received a fax f rom Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injur ies sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords l ist Zimmerman's
injur ies as;
1. Open wound of scalp, wi thout mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre
3. Assaul t by other specI f ied means

All of this does not prove he did not fall down and injure himself.I think, when presented to a jury, it will provide sufficient evidence for his claim he was getting beaten up.

 

[Dan O.]

What symptoms can we develop from George and the witness statements subsequent to being punched in the face? The broken nose is of corse evidence that he was punched in the face.

• temporary loss of consciousness or motor control (ie he fell down)
• pounding head, he felt he was being hit in the head at least 30 times, each time worse than the one before yet his injuries do not support such a beating.
• slurred speech, one witness describes the first cries as "helb, helb" (or something like that), only later becoming the distinct "help, help".
• blurred vision, George couldn't see the witness that says he is calling the police.
• confusion, George believes he is being viciously assaulted and smothered yet there is no evidence on Trayvon that this had occured.
• loss of memory, George doesn't remember walking south at the tee and cannot explain how he ended up where the shooting occured.

Is it possible that George suffered a minor concussion as a result of the punch and subsequently hitting his head on the concrete?

 

[johnny karate]

His statements. Please do not ask me to quote them. I found one on this page, purportedly from Witness 13, "this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him."

So you take Zimmerman's word for it?

Why?

I'm not sure what else we should expect, other than anecdotal stuff. The kind of things people testify to in court. For example, if Zimmerman had been punched in the stomach or put in a headlock or any of a number of possible things that happen in fights that don't show up in photographs.

Except that Zimmerman made very specific claims. He didn't just say "I was beat up". He said he was punched in the face repeatedly, and repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

So again, why do you so readily accept his word?

I seriously wonder what the conversation would be like here if there were other damage documented.

You mean if there was evidence for Zimmerman's claims?

There wouldn't be a conversation in that case.

The whole point is there is no evidence to support Zimmerman's claim that he was repeatedly punched in the face, and repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

And yet for some reason, that he simply claims those things is good enough for you to believe they are true. I am wondering why.

What exactly is required before I can claim I've been beat up? So we don't have that.

Physical evidence in the form of injuries consistent with the specific claims about you made about that fight.

What we do have is physical evidence that seems to show, before the fatal shot, that GZ was losing the fight -- at least tallying the damage to a face against the damage to a finger.

This isn't about discerning something as a vague as Zimmerman "losing the fight".

Zimmerman made the specific claim that he was punched repeatedly in the face, and that he had his head repeatedly bashed onto the pavement.

What evidence supports those claims?

Here's another hypothetical. Suppose GZ said he shot Trayvon in cold blood. Based solely on the physical evidence, could I ever prove he didn't?

Other than the dead body, I guess not. But I fail to see the point.

Again, Zimmerman made very specific claims about what happened during that fight.

He said he was punched in the face repeatedly.

He said he repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

What evidence supports those claims?

 

[Unabogie]

What symptoms can we develop from George and the witness statements subsequent to being punched in the face? The broken nose is of corse evidence that he was punched in the face.

• temporary loss of consciousness or motor control (ie he fell down)
• pounding head, he felt he was being hit in the head at least 30 times, each time worse than the one before yet his injuries do not support such a beating.
• slurred speech, one witness describes the first cries as "helb, helb" (or something like that), only later becoming the distinct "help, help".
• blurred vision, George couldn't see the witness that says he is calling the police.
• confusion, George believes he is being viciously assaulted and smothered yet there is no evidence on Trayvon that this had occured.
• loss of memory, George doesn't remember walking south at the tee and cannot explain how he ended up where the shooting occured.

Is it possible that George suffered a minor concussion as a result of the punch and subsequently hitting his head on the concrete?

Well, I thought he had no head trauma besides the two small cuts, so I doubt he had a concussion. I think the more likely scenario is George tried to detain Trayvon, a scuffle ensued, then George made up details to absolve himself of any blame.

 

[skepteen314]

In my opinion, Zimmerman will be found guilty of first degree murder there by entailing life in prison, or the death penalty, because regardless of how Martin was a "hoodlum", Zimmerman KILLED him in COLD BLOOD. "Stand your ground" as far as I know, only applies to homeowners at their home in a situation in which deadly force would be authorized. Regardless of witnesses being wishywashy, the bottom line is it was murder.

 

[Dancing David]

In my opinion, Zimmerman will be found guilty of first degree murder there by entailing life in prison, or the death penalty, because regardless of how Martin was a "hoodlum", Zimmerman KILLED him in COLD BLOOD. "Stand your ground" as far as I know, only applies to homeowners at their home in a situation in which deadly force would be authorized. Regardless of witnesses being wishywashy, the bottom line is it was murder.

Um, that might be difficult, he is nor charged with first degree murder.

Welcome to the fray!

 

[johnny karate]

witness 13
Zimmerman: "Ah, man this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him."

So a witness hearing Zimmerman claim he was getting beat up is evidence that Zimmerman was beaten up?

I see...

Officer Smith:
Zimmermnn nppeared to hAve a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face

Officer Ayala:
Zimmerman was also bleeding from his nose and the back of his head

How is this evidence that he was beaten up, as opposed to just being punched once in the nose and cutting and/or scraping his head on the pavement during the ensuing struggle?

Officer Serino:
On 3/9/20121 received a fax f rom Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injur ies sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords l ist Zimmerman's
injur ies as;
1. Open wound of scalp, wi thout mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre
3. Assaul t by other specI f ied means

Why would you cite Serino's version of the medical record rather than the medical record itself?

First of all, "assault by other specified means" isn't an injury.

As for the rest of it, how is it evidence that Zimmerman was beaten up, as opposed to just being punched once in the nose and cutting and/or scraping his head on the pavement during the ensuing struggle?

All of this does not prove he did not fall down and injure himself.I think, when presented to a jury, it will provide sufficient evidence for his claim he was getting beaten up.

And when they hear the details of how he he was beaten up - repeatedly being punched in the face, repeatedly having his head bashed onto the pavement - what evidence will they be looking at to support those claims?

 

[skepteen314]

If he is not being charged with first degree murder, then what the hell IS he being charged with?