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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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If he is not being charged with first degree murder, then what the hell IS he being charged with?

George is charged with second degree murder, with a fall back for manslaughter, although I'm not 100% sure how that works legally enough to explain it to you. Maybe someone else can find the charging document for you.
 
If he is not being charged with first degree murder, then what the hell IS he being charged with?

You should probably start reading here. Once you have a better idea what is going on in the case, then you will be able to engage in a more successful discussion.
 
He also didn't tell that witness what he had for dinner 3 weeks earlier...
All of Zimmerman's statements, including the one where he says he felt Martin's hand going down toward the gun, and he became afraid, have been posted here, and are easily available with a simple search.

All the medical documentation has been posted and is easily available with a simple search.

The relevant laws have been posted, explained, and are easily available with a simple search.

You asked this same stuff the last time you showed up, the facts are documented, so what is your point?

My point as a bystander on this thread is that it is difficult to keep track of what was said when. You do come across as snarky at times:)

My reading of Zimmerman's police statement is that there are 2 relevant parts:
feeling TM reaching as if for the exposed gun
TM saying 'You're going to die tonight ************'

I'd assume that the jury will need to believe both parts to conclude that GZ was in easonable fear for his life.
 
I am familliar

You should probably start reading here. Once you have a better idea what is going on in the case, then you will be able to engage in a more successful discussion.
When I made this post, I had to remove the link from the above quote. Here is my response:

I am familliar with the case. What I need is the charging document, someone to explain to me how he only got SECOND Degree murder and if not, manslaughter. He was advised NOT to follow Martin. They were both confronting each other, Martin for being followed, Zimmerman asking him "what are you doing here?" The rest is unclear to me because there has been so much going on in the media, I don't know where to start without eventually casting my vote after everything is said and done.
 
My point as a bystander on this thread is that it is difficult to keep track of what was said when. You do come across as snarky at times:)

My reading of Zimmerman's police statement is that there are 2 relevant parts:
feeling TM reaching as if for the exposed gun
TM saying 'You're going to die tonight ************'

I'd assume that the jury will need to believe both parts to conclude that GZ was in easonable fear for his life.


How will the jury even hear about this? What Zimmerman said to other people about Trayvon's actions is hearsay and cannot be heard unless Zimmerman himself takes the stand in court where he can be cross examined.
 
So you take Zimmerman's word for it?

Why?

His statements are evidence, even if not compelling evidence.

What could we conclude if George had remained silent from the git-go? Not much, I think. So of course his statements are part of the entirety of the evidence.

Except that Zimmerman made very specific claims. He didn't just say "I was beat up". He said he was punched in the face repeatedly, and repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

So again, why do you so readily accept his word?

Suppose I discount his word entirely. I don't see how that changes much. You still have the statements from other witnesses, the injuries, the fact that Trayvon and George interacted and there was a fight.

The whole point is there is no evidence to support Zimmerman's claim that he was repeatedly punched in the face, and repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

If his injuries do not support that contention, then I don't see a way to convince you. If it's the matter of a lack of one-to-one correspondence between "repeatedly" and tearing of the skin, I'd point out that not all contact has to cause injury to the extent of bleeding or even photographic documentation. I simply can't tell how many times (more than one) the guy was hit. I've hit my head before, enough to daze me, without drawing blood.

Zimmerman made the specific claim that he was punched repeatedly in the face, and that he had his head repeatedly bashed onto the pavement.

What evidence supports those claims?

This is getting repetitive. I've seen boxing matches and MMA fights where there was no discernible injuries to the face after repeated punching. He did have more than one small tear on the back of his head. I can't support "repeatedly" by mapping out a series of cuts. I think, much like the term "beat up," we are making rather too much over the word "repeatedly."

I have no trouble accepting that not all blows or contact with the ground/cement/grass would leave a mark. The same is true for his face. Did he get punched each time with a balled fist or with a cloth-covered elbow or the heel of the hand -- I simply don't know. I can imagine lots of possibilities -- for example, a couple of punches to the nose and then one that fractures/doesn't fracture but leaves a cut. How could you tell how many blows were struck, since we only see the final result? Maybe Trayvon punched "girly style" and wasn't very good at it, nor effective.

I'd even agree that George may be exaggerating or misremembering the details. This doesn't hurt his case much, since "fearing for my life" falls under his perceptions of the event, not the exact injuries.

He mentions hitting to the front and the back of his head. There are injuries to the front and the back of his head. It's foolish to draw much more from that. If he had said he was stabbed or shot and there wasn't a cut or a gunshot wound, I can see how the "lack of injuries" argument works. But not here.
 
How will the jury even hear about this? What Zimmerman said to other people about Trayvon's actions is hearsay and cannot be heard unless Zimmerman himself takes the stand in court where he can be cross examined.

It only hearsay if the person making the claim isn't giving a first hand experience.
 
Even though, I was just presented the affidavit, I still fail to come to terms with how it is only second degree murder.
 
His statements are evidence, even if not compelling evidence.

What could we conclude if George had remained silent from the git-go? Not much, I think. So of course his statements are part of the entirety of the evidence.



Suppose I discount his word entirely. I don't see how that changes much. You still have the statements from other witnesses, the injuries, the fact that Trayvon and George interacted and there was a fight.



If his injuries do not support that contention, then I don't see a way to convince you. If it's the matter of a lack of one-to-one correspondence between "repeatedly" and tearing of the skin, I'd point out that not all contact has to cause injury to the extent of bleeding or even photographic documentation. I simply can't tell how many times (more than one) the guy was hit. I've hit my head before, enough to daze me, without drawing blood.



This is getting repetitive. I've seen boxing matches and MMA fights where there was no discernible injuries to the face after repeated punching. He did have more than one small tear on the back of his head. I can't support "repeatedly" by mapping out a series of cuts. I think, much like the term "beat up," we are making rather too much over the word "repeatedly."

I have no trouble accepting that not all blows or contact with the ground/cement/grass would leave a mark. The same is true for his face. Did he get punched each time with a balled fist or with a cloth-covered elbow or the heel of the hand -- I simply don't know. I can imagine lots of possibilities -- for example, a couple of punches to the nose and then one that fractures/doesn't fracture but leaves a cut. How could you tell how many blows were struck, since we only see the final result? Maybe Trayvon punched "girly style" and wasn't very good at it, nor effective.

I'd even agree that George may be exaggerating or misremembering the details. This doesn't hurt his case much, since "fearing for my life" falls under his perceptions of the event, not the exact injuries.

He mentions hitting to the front and the back of his head. There are injuries to the front and the back of his head. It's foolish to draw much more from that. If he had said he was stabbed or shot and there wasn't a cut or a gunshot wound, I can see how the "lack of injuries" argument works. But not here.

So other than the word of a man we know engages in willful deceit to serve his own ends, you can point to no evidence that supports Zimmerman's claim that he was repeatedly punched in the face and repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

Furthermore, even if Zimmerman exaggerated those claims, you don't find that problematic in believing his overall narrative.

Does that about sum it up?
 
When I made this post, I had to remove the link from the above quote. Here is my response:

I am familliar with the case. What I need is the charging document, someone to explain to me how he only got SECOND Degree murder and if not, manslaughter. He was advised NOT to follow Martin. They were both confronting each other, Martin for being followed, Zimmerman asking him "what are you doing here?" The rest is unclear to me because there has been so much going on in the media, I don't know where to start without eventually casting my vote after everything is said and done.

Most likely, premeditation is required for first degree.

IANAL NDIPOTV
 
So other than the word of a man we know engages in willful deceit to serve his own ends, you can point to no evidence that supports Zimmerman's claim that he was repeatedly punched in the face and repeatedly had his head bashed onto the pavement.

Furthermore, even if Zimmerman exaggerated those claims, you don't find that problematic in believing his overall narrative.

Does that about sum it up?

Sounds good.
I'd enjoy hearing the flip-side though. What emerges if we discount the "repeatedly" and stuff George said? Maybe a "lack of evidence is evidence" will work. I'd especially like to see how a flawed narrative gets us to what actually happened, especially with this focus on precise word choice. Perhaps we can work the idea that if we think someone is lying, we can substitute whatever we like, seeing as how our imaginations should have the same force (even more, since we are doing the imagining) as what the liar says.

Since we are going down that road, I'm wondering if George even fired the fatal shot. I think someone mentioned there weren't any fingerprints on the gun, but since he had it afterwards, that wouldn't matter. Is it possible George is lying to protect Trayvon committing suicide?

Heck, in for a penny, in for a pound. It's all lies, all the way down. Was George trying to collect on a drug debt? Did George even see Trayvon when he called 911? There's simply no believing this guy. Who is looking into the possibility that this was a contract killing?

I like this. It opens up so many interesting possibilities.
 
Sounds good.
I'd enjoy hearing the flip-side though. What emerges if we discount the "repeatedly" and stuff George said? Maybe a "lack of evidence is evidence" will work. I'd especially like to see how a flawed narrative gets us to what actually happened, especially with this focus on precise word choice. Perhaps we can work the idea that if we think someone is lying, we can substitute whatever we like, seeing as how our imaginations should have the same force (even more, since we are doing the imagining) as what the liar says.

Since we are going down that road, I'm wondering if George even fired the fatal shot. I think someone mentioned there weren't any fingerprints on the gun, but since he had it afterwards, that wouldn't matter. Is it possible George is lying to protect Trayvon committing suicide?

Heck, in for a penny, in for a pound. It's all lies, all the way down. Was George trying to collect on a drug debt? Did George even see Trayvon when he called 911? There's simply no believing this guy. Who is looking into the possibility that this was a contract killing?

I like this. It opens up so many interesting possibilities.

Your sophistry and sarcastic hyperbole are noted.

But thanks for being honest about the lack of evidence for the very specific claims that Zimmerman made.

I find reactions like this to my request for that evidence quite bemusing because I was under the impression this was a place in which evidence is demanded before a claim will be accepted.
 
<SNIP>. "Stand your ground" as far as I know, only applies to homeowners at their home in a situation in which deadly force would be authorized. Regardless of witnesses being wishywashy, the bottom line is it was murder.
Link please.
 
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I must have missed the black eyes GZ surely would have got if he had been repeatedly punched in the face.......
 
How will the jury even hear about this? What Zimmerman said to other people about Trayvon's actions is hearsay and cannot be heard unless Zimmerman himself takes the stand in court where he can be cross examined.
There are many exceptions to hearsay... http://law.onecle.com/florida/evidence/90.803.html

Someone posted a link to blog by an attorney who said that Florida didn't allow reports unless the state brought them in, but it would be hard for the detectives to take the stand not open the door, as it were..
 
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In my opinion, Zimmerman will be found guilty of first degree murder there by entailing life in prison, or the death penalty, because regardless of how Martin was a "hoodlum", Zimmerman KILLED him in COLD BLOOD. "Stand your ground" as far as I know, only applies to homeowners at their home in a situation in which deadly force would be authorized. Regardless of witnesses being wishywashy, the bottom line is it was murder.

I see you're new here, so you'll get a free pass! Welcome to "Romper Room".

First, a few misconceptions. He could never be charged with Murder 1, as their wasn't malice or any forethought.

This specific case would never be a death penalty case.

Stand Your Ground specifically states that "anywhere I am legally allowed to be". You can read more on the statute here.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ml&StatuteYear=2012&Title=->2012->Chapter 776

Specifically 776.012 and 776.013
 
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