On Consciousness

[Mr. Scott]

Compare all the reporting you want to: None of it gets to the heart of the situation; 'what it actually feels like to me vs anyone else'.

The question "does it look (feel) to me like it does to others?" is discussed in the Inverted Spectrum^WP argument, which has intrigued me for a long time.

My version has been: If I saw blue where others saw red, and vise versa, since infancy, how would that manifest itself to the outside world? How could that even be detected? How would even I know this?

 

[PixyMisa]

Ooo ooo ask me ask me!

You should try meditating some time pixy.

Why? Meditation isn't inherently useless, but it's not magic.

If you are averse to strong psychedelic drugs.

As is any reasonable person.

 

[PixyMisa]

The question "does it look (feel) to me like it does to others?" is discussed in the Inverted Spectrum^WP argument, which has intrigued me for a long time.

My version has been: If I saw blue where others saw red, and vise versa, since infancy, how would that manifest itself to the outside world? How could that even be detected? How would even I know this?

At what level of visual processing are the blue and red signals being switched? For example, after inducing the McCollough effect^WP, are vertical lines tinged with blue or red?

 

[steenkh]

At what level of visual processing are the blue and red signals being switched? For example, after inducing the McCollough effect^WP, are vertical lines tinged with blue or red?

I think the point is that the signals are not switched. Both people would agree on what colour they see, but might not recognise what the other sees if they could switch minds.

The actual colour experience might be highly individual, and that is supported by the fact that no two brains are exactly identical, and the neural patterns that represent the colours are in all likelihood similar, but not identical.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Why? Meditation isn't inherently useless, but it's not magic.

I didn't say it was magic
Because it might snap you out of this brain = computer = 'consciousness is a deterministic function of that' state of mind you are living in. The universe is just as much internal as it is external. Comments on the first video I linked you to?

 

[PixyMisa]

I think the point is that the signals are not switched.

But they have to be. If you see blue when they see red, then at some level of abstraction the signals get switched.

 

[PixyMisa]

I didn't say it was magic

You linked to two videos on transcendental meditation, which is a movement that claims meditation is magic.

Because it might snap you out of this brain = computer = 'consciousness is a deterministic function of that' state of mind you are living in.

What is it with you and determinism? The Universe is not deterministic.

However, the brain is a computer and consciousness is brain function. These are facts. Any other position is simply wrong.

The universe is just as much internal as it is external. Comments on the first video I linked you to?

It's crap. He's talking about magic. That's why I pointed out that meditation is not magic. Which is not something I should need to do, because magic is not real.

 

[Zeuzzz]

You linked to two videos on transcendental meditation, which is a movement that claims meditation is magic.

Evidence for this claim they say it's magic?

It's based on the unified field and various platonic based philosophies as far as I can tell.

 

[PixyMisa]

Evidence for this claim they say it's magic?

They don't say that it's magic. They make claims that are magical, and pretend that they're not talking about magic when they plainly are.

http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Transcendental Meditation.html

This is basic stuff, Zeuzzz, that is available to even the most cursory search. Did you do no research at all before proffering up this latest crop of nonsense?

It's based on the unified field

No. It has nothing whatsoever to do with unified field theory^WP. It's just pseudoscientific babble to cover up their belief in magic.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Christ sakes just ingest some DMT and open your mind to the holistic reality of existence. You don't even need to use it, you can raise the endogenous level of it in your blood stream by meditating. You have DMT in your blood now. It's an endogenous psychoactive.

Its not magic, it's a molecular fact, eluded to by psychopharmacology but not constrained by the molecular materialistic view; by virtue of the conscious altering effects it produces.

Strassman has now distanced himself from any sort of non scientific spiritual idea DMT may play and also revised his pineal gland hypothesis, both of which he did seriously consider in his book. He had to distance himself from such ideas to remain respected by the mainstream scientific community who found his evidence more circumstantial than scientific.

The first two papers are the most up to date and comprehensive, I believe.

A critical review of reports of endogenous psychedelic N, N-dimethyltryptamines in humans: 1955-2010.
Barker SA, McIlhenny EH, Strassman R.
When the Endogenous Hallucinogenic Trace Amine N,N-Dimethyltryptamine Meets the Sigma-1 Receptor
Sci Signal. 2009 March 10; 2(61): pe12.

Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine (2005)
Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines
reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine
Michael S. Jacob, David E. Presti*
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720-3200, USA

The Hallucinogen N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) Is an Endogenous Sigma-1 Receptor Regulator
13 FEBRUARY 2009 VOL 323 SCIENCE
Human Psychopharmacology of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (1996)

Behavioural Brain Research 1996;73(1-2):121-4.
Endogenous hallucinogens as ligands of the trace amine receptors: A possible role in sensory perception

Medical Hypotheses 2008
Article in Press, Corrected Proof J.V. Wallach
“Human psychopharmacology of N,N-dimethyltryptamine”.
Strassman RJ
Behav Brain Res. 1996 Dec;73(1-2):121-4.

The following are slightly older papers, but help to understand endogenous DMTs history.

The Psychedelic Model of Schizophrenia: The Case of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine
American Journal of PsychiatryVol 133 (No. 2) Feb 1976, 203-208
by Gillin; Kaplan; Stillman; Wyatt
A proposed mechanism for the visions of dream sleep.
Callaway JC.
Med Hypotheses. 1988 Jun;26(2):119-24.
Profiles of Psychedelic Drugs - DMT,
by Alexander T. Shulgin
Vol 8 (No. 2) Apr-Jun 1976, 167-168, Journal of Psychedelic Drugs
Enzymatic N-methylation of indoleamines by mammalian brain: Fact or artefact?
Journal of Neurochemistry, Volume 27, Issue 3, pages 701–705, September 1976
The following was one of the first papers to really measure and quantify 5-meo-DMT's endogenous presence.

Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland
Journal of Neurochemistry
DOI: 10.1111/j.1471-4159.1976.tb04456.x
Volume 26, Issue 1, pages 187–190, January 1976
Improved selective ion monitoring mass-spectrometric assay for the determination of n,n-dimethyltryptamine in human blood utilizing capillary column gas chromatography.
by Walker RW, Mandel LR, Kleinman JE, Gillin JC, Wyatt RJ, Vandenheuvel WJA.
J Chromatogr, Biomed Appl, 1979;162:539-46


Tryptamine, N,N-dimethyltryptamine,N,N-dimethyl-5-hydroxytryptamine and 5-methoxytryptamine in human blood and urine.
by Franzen F, Gross H.
Nature 206, 1052 (05 June 1965); doi:10.1038/2061052a0


Tryptamine-N-methyltransferase activity in brain tissue: a re-examination.
Brain Research (1976)
Volume: 114, Issue: 2, Pages: 359-364
Boarder MR, Rodnight R.

Psychotomimetic N-methylated tryptamines: Formation in brain in vivo and in vitro.
by Saavedra JM, Axelrod J.
Science 1972;175:1365-6.


Increased excretion of dimethyltryptamine and certain features of psychosis. A possible association.
by Murray RM, Oon MCH, Rodnight R, Birley JLT, Smith A.
Arch Gen Psychiatry, 1979;36:644-9.


A dimethyltryptamine-forming enzyme in human blood.
by Wyatt RJ, Saavedra JM, Axelrod J.
Am J Psychiatry 1973;130:754-60.


N,N-Dimethyltryptamine: An endogenous hallucinogen.
by Barker SA, Monti JA, Christian ST.
Int Rev Neurobiol 1981;22:83-110.


Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric isotope dilution determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine concentrations in normals and psychiatric patients.
by Wyatt RJ, Mandel LR, Ahn HS, Walker RW, Vandenheuvel WJA.
Psychopharmacology, 1973;31:265-70.


Blood dimethyltryptamine concentrations in psychotic disorders.
by Lipinski JF, Mandel LR, Ahn HS, Vandenheuvel WJA, Walker RW.
Biol Psychiatry, 1974;9:89-91


The enzymatic N-methylation of serotonin and other amines.
by Axelrod J.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther, 1962;138:28-33.


The distribution and properties of the non-specific N-methyltransferase in brain.
by Saavedra JM, Coyle JT, Axelrod J.
J Neurochem 1973;20:743-52.


Urinary excretion of dimethyltryptamine in liver disease.
by Checkley SA, Oon MCH, Rodnight R, Murphy MP, Williams RS, Birley JLT.
Am J Psychiatry, 1979;136:439-41.


Hallucinogenic N-methylated indolealkylamines in the cerebrospinal fluid of psychiatric and control populations.
by Corbett L, Christian ST, Morin RD, Benington F, Smythies JR.
Br J Psychiatry 1978;132:139-44.


In: Wood J, ed. Neurobiology of Cerebrospinal Fluid. v. 2.
by Brown G, Smythies J, Morin R.
New York: Plenum, 1983:173-7.


Identification of dimethyltryptamine and O-methylbufotenin in human cerebrospinal fluid by combined gas chromatography/mass spectrometry.
by Smythies JR, Morin RD, Brown G.
Biol Psychiatry 1979;14:549-56.


biosignificance of n- and o-methylated indoles to psychiatric disorders.
by Koslow.
National Institute of Mental Health, 1974;23:210-9.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I think the point is that the signals are not switched. Both people would agree on what colour they see, but might not recognise what the other sees if they could switch minds.

The actual colour experience might be highly individual, and that is supported by the fact that no two brains are exactly identical, and the neural patterns that represent the colours are in all likelihood similar, but not identical.

Right, that's the point. Since I'd have grown up seeing red as blue, I'd have learned the name of an apple's color was "red" and ripe and delicious, though I'd actually see the blue quale (forgive me). I'd see a red sky, but learned through lifetime experience its color was named blue, and it would have the meaning of a clear sunny day without threat of rain.

Aside from some likely hard wiring of instinctive color meanings (e.g. food lit with blue light doesn't taste as good), can this matter?

PS: There are some minor variations in cone sensory pigments that occasionally manifest themselves in verbal descriptions of perceived colors. I had some fascinating conversations with color blind people. Some who are red/green blind actually seem to hallucinate those color on BW pictures.

 

[PixyMisa]

Christ sakes just ingest some DMT and open your mind to the holistic reality of existence.

It doesn't work that way. It just makes your brain malfunction.

Its not magic, it's a molecular fact, eluded

Alluded.

to by psychopharmacology but not constrained by the molecular materialistic view.

It's a material molecule. There is no other valid view.

 

[Dancing David]

No.


And no one will ever know what for example, pain, actually feels like to someone else.

Does it matter at all?

Vision BTW will be consistent/similar , the receptors are the same, the proportions are different.

 

[Dancing David]

But they have to be. If you see blue when they see red, then at some level of abstraction the signals get switched.

I think that is not the point, the issue is that the 'color' which is made by the brain is represented ab a 'hue' in the presentation. Ergo we can not actually know directly what hue the other person perceives, we just know that it is consistent.

And less important then the fact that the brain manufactures the perceptions anyway.

 

[PixyMisa]

Right, that's the point. Since I'd have grown up seeing red as blue, I'd have learned the name of an apple's color was "red" and ripe and delicious, though I'd actually see the blue quale (forgive me). I'd see a red sky, but learned through lifetime experience its color was named blue, and it would have the meaning of a clear sunny day without threat of rain.

That's not possible unless the signals are switched.

PS: There are some minor variations in cone sensory pigments that occasionally manifest themselves in verbal descriptions of perceived colors. I had some fascinating conversations with color blind people. Some who are red/green blind actually seem to hallucinate those color on BW pictures.

See impossible colours^WP and imaginary colours^WP. Also the McCollough effect^WP that I mentioned earlier, which retunes the brain's colour vs. orientation calibration system - it's not a conventional optical illusion; the effects can last for days or even months.

 

[PixyMisa]

I think that is not the point

But it is the point. For subjective perception to end up dramatically different, at some point, something different happened in the processing of the sensory input.

And since each stage of the visual perception pathway has its own quirks, by examining those quirks we could identify where the change happened. Does the McCollough Effect tint vertical lines for our subject with the colour of a cherry or the colour of the sky?

 

[Belz...]

So then we have Godel:

"According to my notes, Gödel’s response went as follows: It should be possible to form a complete theory of human behavior, i.e., to predict from the hereditary and environmental givens what a person will do. However, if a mischievous person learns of this theory, he can act in a way so as to negate it. Hence I conclude that such a theory exists, but that no mischievous person will learn of it. In the same way, time travel is possible, but no person will ever manage to kill his past self. Gödel laughed his laugh then, and concluded, The a priori is greatly neglected. Logic is very powerful. Apropos of the free will question, on another occasion he said: There is no contradiction between free will and knowing in advance precisely what one will do. If one knows oneself completely then this is the situation. One does not deliberately do the opposite of what one wants."

“Conversations with Gödel”, in Rudy Rucker, Infinity and the Mind, Princeton University Press, 1995,

I'm trying real hard to see the relevance of that post.

Christ sakes just ingest some DMT and open your mind to the holistic reality of existence.

You know, Zeuzzz, you've been here long enough to know that skeptics don't consider personal experience to be very strong evidence of anything, especially when your brain is not functionning nominally, like it would be the case with what you're proposing.

 

[Mr. Scott]

But it is the point. For subjective perception to end up dramatically different, at some point, something different happened in the processing of the sensory input.

And since each stage of the visual perception pathway has its own quirks, by examining those quirks we could identify where the change happened. Does the McCollough Effect tint vertical lines for our subject with the colour of a cherry or the colour of the sky?

I'm really enjoying learning the McCollough Effect. Thanks! I wonder if it's using the chromatic aberration correction circuitry.

 

[Zeuzzz]

You know, Zeuzzz, you've been here long enough to know that skeptics don't consider personal experience to be very strong evidence of anything, especially when your brain is not functionning nominally, like it would be the case with what you're proposing.

Yet your posting your own personal view based on your own personal experience now

 

[PixyMisa]

I'm really enjoying learning the McCollough Effect. Thanks! I wonder if it's using the chromatic aberration correction circuitry.

If you enjoyed that, you may also like the MIT Introduction to Psychology lecture series. The lecturer's field of research is visual perception, and he covers quite a bit of this sort of thing.