Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[triforcharity]

Would it be a forcible felony if George had turned south at the tee and attempted to physically detain trayvon to keep him from getting away before the cops arrived?

Not really, but it COULD. IMO, it would be simple battery, but not rising to the level of kidnapping. His intent would not have been to remove TM from the area, just keep him from getting away.

So no, simple battery is all.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Would it be a forcible felony if George had turned south at the tee and attempted to physically detain trayvon to keep him from getting away before the cops arrived? And now you are going to ask "where's the proof of that hapening"? To which my reply is: proof is not necessary. It is only necessary to convince a jury that it is a sufficiently likely chain of events

In this hypothetical? No. For an assault to be a felony in Florida it generally has to rise to the level of using a deadly weapon, or causing a serious injury.

 

[Unabogie]

Of course, there is no evidence that Zimmerman took any offensive role in the altercation and a good bit of evidence that he didn't. Martin's suspicion that Zimmerman was following him would not really satisfy his role as an aggressor.

Of course there is! The evidence that he took an offensive role is that the fight occurred in a place inconsistent with his story, that he lied about the severity of the fight, and that he lied about material facts leading up to the fight All of those lies are circumstantial evidence that he started the fight, since Trayvon had absolutely zero motive to attack George! Zero!

According to George, he never said a word to Trayvon. Not one comment. Not one question. Trayvon just decided to viciously attempt to murder him with no cause.

But the evidence shows that to be a lie.

George was following him, cussing that "these ******** always get away". DeeDee heard him angrily ask "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE" (which he left out of his story). He claimed he never followed him. He claimed he was hit once, immediately hit the ground, then was pummeled in the face 30 times and had his head hit repeatedly against concrete. He has two small cuts and a "likely broken" nose. Trayvon has no blood on his hands and no bruising or cuts on them. The body is some 55 feet from where George claims he hit the ground. The NEN call shows he had ample time to return to his truck, but didn't do so. His story about "circling" his car is impossible when you match that to his walkthrough. The timeline doesn't match up at all. George outweighed him by almost 50 pounds and was 11 years older.

His lies are going to do him in.

I know you won't ever agree, but that's ok. The bond hearing shenanigans are just icing on the cake for those who don't find him credible. We got to see first hand how he's perfectly willing to lie in order to cover himself.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Can someone point me to a non biased source for this screwdriver story only been finding Ann Coulter's site so far and would prefer a nuetral source .

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

Thousands of people gathered in Sanford to demand an arrest in the case, as more details surfaced about the teen’s suspensions in school.
...

 

[Cylinder]

What evidence corroborates Zimmerman's claim that Martin initiated the altercation?

DeeDee's claim that Martin initiated the confrontation. The lack of evidence that Zimmerman took any offensive role in the altercation.

What evidence corroborates Zimmerman's claim that Martin repeatedly punched him?

Multiple injury sites to Zimmerman's face. Injury to Martin's hand. W6's statement that Martin was either hitting of forcibly restraining Zimmerman. W1's statement that she observed "flailing arms" at the same time she saw W6, who said it looked like Martin was hitting Zimmerman.

"And that's why I made the statement that he was hitting him on top-- Because, I mean, that's what it looked like from where I was standing. It could have been him just trying to forcefully hold the guy down, or it could be hitting him."

What evidence corroborates Zimmerman's claim that Martin repeatedly bashed his head onto the concrete?

W6's statement that Martin had Zimmerman on the concrete sidewalk and was either hitting Zimmerman or forcefully restraining him. The multiple injury sites to the back and top of Zimmerman's head.

What evidence corroborates Zimmerman's claims that Martin reached for his gun?

Other than W6's description of Martin's posture at that point in the altercation, I can't find anything.

 

[Cylinder]

According to George, he never said a word to Trayvon. Not one comment. Not one question. Trayvon just decided to viciously attempt to murder him with no cause.

That's simply not true.

 

[crimresearch]

Would it be a forcible felony if George had turned south at the tee and attempted to physically detain trayvon to keep him from getting away before the cops arrived? And now you are going to ask "where's the proof of that hapening"? To which my reply is: proof is not necessary. It is only necessary to convince a jury that it is a sufficiently likely chain of events

Again, no.

776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

All of those have very specific definitions that aren't met by 'What are you doing here?' with or without mere physical contact.

And before anyone asks (again), 'aggravated stalking' doesn't mean merely following.

And before any asks (again), merely having a weapon in an inside the waist holster, doesn't meet the defintion of 'credible threat'.

 

[crimresearch]

DeeDee's claim that Martin initiated the confrontation. The lack of evidence that Zimmerman took any offensive role in the altercation.



Multiple injury sites to Zimmerman's face. Injury to Martin's hand. W6's statement that Martin was either hitting of forcibly restraining Zimmerman. W1's statement that she observed "flailing arms" at the same time she saw W6, who said it looked like Martin was hitting Zimmerman.

"And that's why I made the statement that he was hitting him on top-- Because, I mean, that's what it looked like from where I was standing. It could have been him just trying to forcefully hold the guy down, or it could be hitting him."



W6's statement that Martin had Zimmerman on the concrete sidewalk and was either hitting Zimmerman or forcefully restraining him. The multiple injury sites to the back and top of Zimmerman's head.



Other than W6's description of Martin's posture at that point in the altercation, I can't find anything.

And on the last (as repeatedly explained to the same posters over and over again)...

The prosecution pretty much has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin *wasn't* doing something that Zimmerman construed as reaching for the gun.

Zimmerman doesn't need to prove it.

 

[Unabogie]

Here's George's other calls reporting "suspicious black youths".

http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/20/...ivolous-calls-murdering-trayvon-martin-audio/

Wow, it's almost the same call, over and over again. In the first one, same "I don't want to hand out my address", and "there's been a break in in my neighborhood" and it's always near the "back gate".

Unreal.

 

[Unabogie]

That's simply not true.

It's not? According to George, he only said "I don't have a problem". Prior to that, he said nothing. What else do you think he said?

 

[Dcdrac]

Ok reading that Miami Herald piece its clear he was no angel but we have no hard evidence that TM was up to anything when he was killed by Zimmerman

 

[Cylinder]

It's not? According to George, he only said "I don't have a problem". Prior to that, he said nothing. What else do you think he said?

I mean, that is saying something, right?

 

[KatieG]

CTH?

Conservative Tree House

 

[Unabogie]

I mean, that is saying something, right?

Prior to Trayvon attacking him, he said nothing. At the car, he said nothing. When Trayvon approached from behind, he said nothing until yelled at by the kid.

So in his telling, Trayvon decided to murder him with zero provocation. Is that really a controversial statement? I thought that was the running theory, that Trayvon was deranged?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Would it be a forcible felony if George had turned south at the tee and attempted to physically detain trayvon to keep him from getting away before the cops arrived?

The legality of how this would affect GZ's claim of self-defense has been discussed but I personally don't think there's a jury out there that wouldn't go for murder 2, manslaughter at a minimum if they could find any evidence that GZ is lying and in fact tried to detain TM.

And now you are going to ask "where's the proof of that hapening"? To which my reply is: proof is not necessary. It is only necessary to convince a jury that it is a sufficiently likely chain of events.

I don't know how accurate your claim is legally speaking, but I bolded the relevant part. At best, it's a possibility. A possibility for which there is 0 proof other than a bunch of people who don't like GZ and want, desperately want, that to be what happened.

 

[Cylinder]

prosecution pretty much has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin *wasn't* doing something that Zimmerman construed as reaching for the gun.

Zimmerman doesn't need to prove it.

Right. The tactic here is to try to find reasonable doubt regarding Zimmerman's account and using that as proof of guilt.

 

[KatieG]

Typical game playing. NO ONE, not one person has asserted that TM should have been prosecuted for being caught with a screwdriver. I also love how you mention the screwdriver and ignore the woman's jewelry. What people have asserted is that a teenage boy that gets caught with a bunch of woman's jewelry that he can't explain along with a screwdriver is likely involved with burglary or stolen goods.

But when that simple statement of fact is made, what do we get? Endless game playing, obfuscation and straw men arguments. Anything to deny the obvious.

And the strange thing is, why deny? If a person is interested in the truth, why deny it? Does it suddenly mean GZ had a right to shoot TM? NO. But it might mean TM isn't the innocent child he's been made out to be and I guess we can't have that under any circumstances.

p.s. Please respond civilly and remember rule 12 .

I haven't seen any reference to TM being an innocent child in a long time. Not sure why that still keeps being brought up.

 

[KatieG]

Remember the Gainesville (Florida) Ripper?

Matching toolmarks found at three of his murder scenes to a screwdriver found at Danny Rolling's campsite led to his eventual death by lethal injection.

What does that have to do with this case?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

So in his telling, Trayvon decided to murder him with zero provocation.

Actually, now that all of the evidence has come out, can someone confirm if GZ ever told the police that TM said he was going to kill him (as was claimed in some newspapers early on)? What precisely did GZ sat TM said?

Is that really a controversial statement? I thought that was the running theory, that Trayvon was deranged?

300 pages in and you think we think TM was "deranged"?

 

[Cylinder]

I don't know how accurate your claim is legally speaking, but I bolded the relevant part. At best, it's a possibility. A possibility for which there is 0 proof other than a bunch of people who don't like GZ and want, desperately want, that to be what happened.

The forcible felony instruction requires an a charge for an independant forcible felony. The aggressor instruction requires that the state prove, BARD, that the defendant was the aggressor and failed to reatreat or withdraw.