• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

Status
Not open for further replies.
He said it was "important" - not that he "had to."

Judge Lester: "They were well aware of the money that was available, well aware of the amounts that were in controversy, here as far as large amounts. Mr. Zimmerman cannot sit back as I use again the euphemism a potted palm and let his wife testify falsely before the court when he knew well in advance of the hearing the amounts of money in controversy. Nor can he allow his attorney stand up to make misrepresentations, not by your fault whatsoever Mr. O'Mara, you were completely candid and honest with the court as you have always been. Uh, and he can't sit back and obtain the benefits of a lower bond or circumstances based upon those material falsehoods and that's what they were. So at this time I revoke his bond and place him without bond status.

Find that good cause exists based upon the material rep - misrepresentations that the court relied upon. Order him to surrender himself within 48 hours to the Sheriff of Seminole County if he wants to explain himself subsequent to that you may reset this for a bond hearing to give him an opportunity to explain to the court what happened and at this time it would be important for him to testify about what transpired."

Exactly. Zimmerman offered no explanation to allay the judge's concerns, so he raised the bond to $1 million.

The judge never said Zimmerman had to testify to get bonded.
 
Last edited:
Transcripts of jail calls:

Call #1:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/109016800-18075308.pdf

Call #2:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/238996600-18075641.pdf

Call #3:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/105004600-18080045.pdf

Call #4:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/107714140-18081033.pdf

Call #5:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/288942540-18081608.pdf

Call #6:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/23815369110400-18081827.pdf

~Source:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...-list-release-special-prosecutor-angela-corey

I thought this part of the call was rather interesting. Maybe the judge thought so too.

ZIMMERMAN: Okey dokey. You know what I was thinking?
WOMAN: What?
ZIMMERMAN: If they, if they do decide to give me bail or bond
WOMAN: Uh huh
ZIMMERMAN: um, maybe I can just leave from the Sanford Airport and go up to, uh, um,Heaven
 
Why do you think that?

Hidden passport.
You mean the one that GZ's own attorney handed in? That one? Yep, sounds like a plan to flee to me. It's hard to keep track of all of these passports so if I'm wrong on that count let me know.
Lot's of other people's money.
Well if having donated money doesn't prove an intent to flee I don't know what does.
PayPal and website set up right before initial arrest.
Paypal and a website, oh no!
Hiding money from not only the Court, but his own attorney.
Who he THEN told. Look, I think the evidence is quite clear they misled the court on the amount of money they had. I suspect GZ was conflicted, otherwise he'd have not fessed up to Omara. Or he had the brains to figure out he was going to get caught. Either way, there are plenty of reasons to mislead other than intending to flee, and little evidence they actually planned to do so.

Furthermore, it would be unusual to flee and set yourself up for a life on the run at this point in the game, when you have a highly defendable case, and 2-3 years before its even going to go to court! Now if things start looking really bad for GZ during trial, and he's still got a passport hidden away, that's a different story.
What makes you think that the judge's beliefs are bizarre?

The fact that there was no evidence to support them. It would be one thing if the judge had said "may have been creating a backup plan to flee if things didn't look good" or something along those lines, but to categorically state that he believes they were planning to flee is bizarre. It's bizarre because I expect that type of sloppy reasoning from people on forums, but expect better from a judge.
 
Last edited:
Why do you think this matters, in terms of the trial? Do you think it's unusual for the police to tell a false or partial story to the public while pursuing a case?

Yes, I think it's unusual.

I also think the number of apparent lies is also unusual.

Many posters here have jumped all over any inconsistencies from Zimmerman.

"Are you lying now, or were you lying then?"

This is a rather large inconsistency from the lead investigator that he will have to explain at some point.

If he was just playing games to influence GZ or GZ's attorneys, there's no reason to keep that a secret. I have already suggested that the lies were for GZ's ears in previous postings.
 
Transcripts of jail calls:

Call #1:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/109016800-18075308.pdf

Call #2:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/238996600-18075641.pdf

Call #3:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/105004600-18080045.pdf

Call #4:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/107714140-18081033.pdf

Call #5:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/288942540-18081608.pdf

Call #6:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-06/23815369110400-18081827.pdf

~Source:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...-list-release-special-prosecutor-angela-corey

I thought this part of the call was rather interesting. Maybe the judge thought so too.

ZIMMERMAN: Okey dokey. You know what I was thinking?
WOMAN: What?
ZIMMERMAN: If they, if they do decide to give me bail or bond
WOMAN: Uh huh
ZIMMERMAN: um, maybe I can just leave from the Sanford Airport and go up to, uh, um,Heaven

What does that last part have to do with fleeing justice?

GZ just wants to go into hiding and he doesn't want anyone to know where that would be.

You know, from the death warrant...
 
You mean the one that GZ's own attorney handed in? That one? Yep, sounds like a plan to flee to me. It's hard to keep track of all of these passports so if I'm wrong on that count let me know.
..

The one handed in by his atty at the April 20 hearing was expired, and GZ knew it was expired. At the hearing, he said it was “the only passport he has.”

There was another one, revealed to have been hidden in a safety deposit box by his wife, during jail house calls. When referenced, Z told his wife: “ok, you hold onto that.”

The second, valid passport was not actually handed in to the court until June.
 
What does that last part have to do with fleeing justice?

GZ just wants to go into hiding and he doesn't want anyone to know where that would be.

You know, from the death warrant...

...apparently under the instruction of their lawyer, since Zimmerman insists that O'Mara have a protective vest in the same conversation. For some reason their security team wanted them in the hotel...probably to switch vehicles. Zimmerman wanted a direct transfer to the airport. It also isn't out of the realm of possibility for whatever plan he was given to be a cover - the actual plan only being announced once Zimmerman is alone and with his detail.
 
Yes, I think it's unusual.

I also think the number of apparent lies is also unusual.

Many posters here have jumped all over any inconsistencies from Zimmerman.

"Are you lying now, or were you lying then?"

This is a rather large inconsistency from the lead investigator that he will have to explain at some point.

If he was just playing games to influence GZ or GZ's attorneys, there's no reason to keep that a secret. I have already suggested that the lies were for GZ's ears in previous postings.
What do you expect a detective to do when the DA says no go, we're not going to charge - even after you found probable cause and make a request to charge?

Do you expect the detective to get into a public fight with his boss that's going to be covered by the media end-to-end?

Yeah, pick a fight with your superior in public. That's going to go down real good.
 
You mean the one that GZ's own attorney handed in? That one? Yep, sounds like a plan to flee to me. It's hard to keep track of all of these passports so if I'm wrong on that count let me know.

Well if having donated money doesn't prove an intent to flee I don't know what does.

Paypal and a website, oh no!

Who he THEN told. Look, I think the evidence is quite clear they misled the court on the amount of money they had. I suspect GZ was conflicted, otherwise he'd have not fessed up to Omara. Or he had the brains to figure out he was going to get caught. Either way, there are plenty of reasons to mislead other than intending to flee, and little evidence they actually planned to do so.

Furthermore, it would be unusual to flee and set yourself up for a life on the run at this point in the game, when you have a highly defendable case, and 2-3 years before its even going to go to court! Now if things start looking really bad for GZ during trial, and he's still got a passport hidden away, that's a different story.


The fact that there was no evidence to support them. It would be one thing if the judge had said "may have been creating a backup plan to flee if things didn't look good" or something along those lines, but to categorically state that he believes they were planning to flee is bizarre. It's bizarre because I expect that type of sloppy reasoning from people on forums, but expect better from a judge.
As I've indicated before, I'm pretty sure the judge knows full well what chess pieces go where.

Based on what he has had in front of him at each stage of the process, I think his rulings have been pretty cut and dried.
The suspicion of plans to flee serves nicely as a reason to set the bond at $1 million, instead of what the defense, or the prosecution wanted.

I also figure that O'mara and his new partner have a pretty good notion of how the game is played as well. The fact that he announced himself very pleased, instead of filing an appeal of the amount speaks to that.
 
What do you expect a detective to do when the DA says no go, we're not going to charge - even after you found probable cause and make a request to charge?

Do you expect the detective to get into a public fight with his boss that's going to be covered by the media end-to-end?

Yeah, pick a fight with your superior in public. That's going to go down real good.

If that's his explanation, then let's hear him say it.

I expect him to say he has no comment to the media about the case.

Agreeing in public at that time that GZ probably shot TM in self defense only inflamed the crowd and influenced the jury pool.

It reinforced the idea that maybe SPD hadn't done any investigation.
 
Last edited:
You mean the one that GZ's own attorney handed in? That one? Yep, sounds like a plan to flee to me. It's hard to keep track of all of these passports so if I'm wrong on that count let me know.

Well if having donated money doesn't prove an intent to flee I don't know what does.

Paypal and a website, oh no!

Who he THEN told. Look, I think the evidence is quite clear they misled the court on the amount of money they had. I suspect GZ was conflicted, otherwise he'd have not fessed up to Omara. Or he had the brains to figure out he was going to get caught. Either way, there are plenty of reasons to mislead other than intending to flee, and little evidence they actually planned to do so.

Furthermore, it would be unusual to flee and set yourself up for a life on the run at this point in the game, when you have a highly defendable case, and 2-3 years before its even going to go to court! Now if things start looking really bad for GZ during trial, and he's still got a passport hidden away, that's a different story.


The fact that there was no evidence to support them. It would be one thing if the judge had said "may have been creating a backup plan to flee if things didn't look good" or something along those lines, but to categorically state that he believes they were planning to flee is bizarre. It's bizarre because I expect that type of sloppy reasoning from people on forums, but expect better from a judge.

I never said it PROVED a damn thing, and you know it. See, this is why I don't post as much in this thread. The BS snarky posts like this.

What EVIDENCE do YOU have that the judge's conclusion and belief is BIZARRE? Your OWN beliefs mean NOTHING.

Anyway, let me know when you find something to support your conclusion that it's bizarre.

<SNIP>

Edited by Locknar: 
SNIPed, breach of rule 12.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Changing the topic; How many years before this is finally adjudicated, I wonder?
I would guess that if it takes longer than 7-12 months to go to trial, someone is stalling... There really doesn't seem to be anything missing.
 
It benefits GZ to wait as long as possible to go to trial. Let the case fall out of public prominence before going to trial.

He has already waived a speedy trial, I believe.
In this case the wait would be years, while the media kept fanning the 'Why is he stalling?' flames...

In practice, the judge can limit the number of delays he will grant for either side.
 
If I'm not mistaken this thread was shut down around the time that GZ's wife was arrested for perjury, and therefore there was not much discussion about it. Some questions:

1. Is the prosecution allowed to now pressure GZ to plea in exchange for letting his wife off?
2. If GZ had testified at the bond hearing, is it right to assume they would have immediately asked him questions that would have forced him to implicate his wife? I know someone cannot be forced to testify against a spouse, but that's an all or nothing proposition, is it not? That is, he can't only answer questions he likes, then refuse if they pertain to his wife?
3. What are the chances his bond hearing subterfuge will be allowed into trial to demonstrate his truthfulness? Under what circumstances, if any, will that be allowed?
 
You've been asked for legal citations to back up your assertions about the legal system, When you provide them we can discuss them.


Why do you keep making statements like this?

Since I have made no assertions, I don't need to back them up. In fact, I can't.

They don't exist.

I certainly haven't made any about the legal system.

What I did was ask you a question in response to an assertion which you made. (In this post, in case your memory needs assistance.)

A question which you seem to have been too busy planting straw to actually respond to.

Here, I'll give you another chance.
If he wants out, it will be 100K... That isn't even half of what he should have in his defense fund.

How are all of these mundane, routine processes that hundreds of thousands of defendants go through every year in America, all predictors of doom and disaster in Zimmerman's case?


Which is routine and mundane for hundreds of thousands of Americans every year ... the $1,000,000 bail, or the $200,000+ slush fund of found money?

After you answer (or before, if you wish) you can explain what assertions I have made about the legal system which even remotely resemble either of these assertions you are attempting to attribute to me.
Do you have a link to any legal citation that $1million in this murder case violates the Constitutional ban on excessive bail?

Do you have a link to anything definitive to support the notion that Zimmerman's pre-trial hearings have been conducted improperly?

<snip>

If you can't then it is only so much straw.

"Routine" and "mundane" were your choice of words. Since we are discussing the facts of the Zimmerman case it is perfectly reasonable for me to ask you to clarify your statement with regard to the subject at hand.

I am puzzled that you are so strenuously avoiding this, to the point of outright fabrications about what I have written.

Should you care to accurately quote my exact words, we can discuss them as well.


Ironic that you should follow up with an insinuation like that, after such a blatant exhibition of your own inability to respond to what has actually been written here. But since the link I provided to the post of yours is not sufficiently accurate for you, I will reiterate the sequence in more detail.

You said ...
<snip>

The identical process that so many people here are calling 'pro-Zimmerman'.

-------------------------------------------
(Note that this is the very first mention of the phrase or concept of 'pro-Zimmerman' in this exchange, or (to the best of my memory) any exchange between the two of us. Or for that matter (again, to the best of my recollection) any post by me at all.

This is best explained by the fact that not only am I neither 'pro' nor 'anti- Zimmerman', but beyond that I am profoundly uninterested in whether or not anyone else is save for how that might affect the actual facts of the case.

But back to the topic of this post.)
--------------------------------------------

I responded ...
<snip>

Is it somehow 'anti-Zimmerman' to suggest they might not be?


You
came back with ...
<snip>

If not, why would you try to bring in the meme that sticking to the Constitution and the rules of the legal system, is pro or anti anybody?

See how that works? Your meme, which you brought in.

Also, you are the one who has been blathering on about the Constitution, which I have made no comment about either directly or indirectly.

I did not question the legality or the propriety of Zimmerman's current bail, or the proceeding in which it was assigned, or the donations he has received. Those are utterly artifacts of your own creation. AKA, beau coup straw.

I simply asked you if you felt that the adjectives which you chose apply, in your opinion, to the facts in the case we are discussing.

If they do not, and your hyperbole was ill-considered, simply say so. There's nothing shameful about a moment of over-enthusiasm. It happens to us all.

It certainly doesn't merit the mountains of dried grass you've been so preoccupied with piling up.
 
Last edited:
A question which you seem to have been too busy planting straw to actually respond to...

...If you can't then it is only so much straw...

...AKA, beau coup straw...

..It certainly doesn't merit the mountains of dried grass you've been so preoccupied with piling up.
I think you're in the wrong forum, the farming and gardening forums are a few indexes yonder over there. :D
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom