There was a Conspiracy to mislead US citizens into war with Afghanistan and Iraq

Yet another bad link (wapo article) and refusal to put the non-linked New York Times article into a quote box. I'm out. I just can't tell who's talking here, whether it's a person or a copy/paste. He's over-egging the Taliban / UBL rift it seems to me.

Strongly suggest that ConspiracyKiller write a book and include copious footnotes. Good luck.
 
A W Smith said:
If the Taliban were so frustrated by OBL why didn't they just kill him like you allege they did to his ten body guards? (all I could find outside of condpiradroid sites was there was a dispute between the bodyguards and taliban protectors) They didn't need to fund a US missile strike when they could take him out with a thirty cent bullet.

You know if I had 10 years of my life to waste and enough filing cabinet space to fill with useless interdepartment memos, consolate telegrams, Freedom from information. Releases (LOL) I could probably knit together any sort of conspiracy my heart desires by "connecting the dots" . The thing is, your motives make no sense at all long term or even short term, they just don't pan out to any significant benefit when you weigh cost/benefit.

You probably imagine yourself as the next Woodward/Bernstein but it should be apparent that nobody cares. All hat no cattle. I find idealogues very boring. You are on the wrong forum, yes.
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Do you remember the wounded American soldier who crawled to the Taliban village in Afghanistan because he new that by their strict Muslim tradition the people of the village would have to take care of him and protect him with their lives because once he entered the village he became a "GUEST" but had they found him outside the village he would have been killed?

These people live by an old tradition involving a strict code of honor and Muslim law. Most afghans would rather "DIE" than violate their Muslim traditions and laws. Even if that means dieing to protect their enemy who is their "GUEST".

The people of Afghanistan would have turned against the Taliban if they were to openly betray the great Afghan war hero who helped defeat the Soviet empire.

The Taliban had to have their OBL problem dealt with in such a way that did not make the Taliban look like they were ignoring and denying their Muslim duty of protecting their "GUEST".

How can Mullah Omar be the "leader of the FAITHFUL" if he wont adhere to Muslim tradition?

Oh and speaking of motives that "make no sense at all long term or even short term, they just don't pan out to any significant benefit when you weigh cost/benefit."

So you think there are enough good reasons that far outweighed the US deciding NOT to use any one or more of the many other, much cheaper, easier, legal, and less likely to piss the Muslim world off methods to apprehend or kill OBL instead of invading and occupying the grave yard of empires for over a decade?

What are those good reasons that far outweighed having done anything else BUT INVADING THE GRAVEYARD OF EMPIRES?

Because at this point the US motives to invade and occupy "make no sense at all long term or even short term, they just don't pan out to any significant benefit when you weigh cost/benefit."
 
Robrob said:
Nowhere in your linked article does it describe Bin Laden as being arrested by the Taliban. :rolleyes:
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One is arrested when they are "VIOLENTLY" "EXPELLED" from their home and “CONSTRAINED” against their will and “ISOLATED” so as to “LIMIT their COMMUNICATIONS” = arrested.

The New York Times article interviewed “THREE SENIOR AMERICAN OFFICIALS” who said Osama bin Laden and the Taliban “have had a VIOLENT falling-out, raising the possibility that his days of refuge may be numbered”.

According to the THREE SENIOR AMERICAN OFFICIALS “a FIGHT broke out” when the Taliban assigned guards to “CONSTRAIN” OBL “for the first time, and tried to limit his communications” as the Taliban guards “EXPELLED” OBL “from Kandahar” and took him to a location where he would be “ISOLATED in the countryside”.

That place in the country side where OBL was “CONSTRAINED” and “ISOLATED” was the prisoner location of OBL where we have learned, from MANY later written articles, that after OBL was arrested, which led to gun fight, the Taliban had asked the US, during the negotiations on how to get rid of OBL, to conduct a missile strike on the “ISOLATED” prisoner location of OBL and even offered to pay for it.

But Clinton was moving out so gave the reports to the Bush administration but Bush said he “was tired of swatting flies” and declassified documents show Bush was not interested in OBL before 9/11.

When I list links with the relevant info above the links I am putting them in chronological order of the events that took place not the order of when the articles were written because some articles that were written later where about declassified documents that further explain what happened in 1999 after the Taliban had ordered guards to “CONSTRAIN” and “ISOLATE” OBL against his will, = arrest, they asked the US to KILL OBL or hand over evidence so he can be extradited or if there was no evidence get a neutral country like Saudi Arabia to take him.
 
ConspiracyKiller said:
Do you remember the wounded American soldier who crawled to the Taliban village in Afghanistan because he new that by their strict Muslim tradition the people of the village would have to take care of him and protect him with their lives because once he entered the village he became a "GUEST" but had they found him outside the village he would have been killed?

These people live by an old tradition involving a strict code of honor...[snip]
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I don't see how killing someone, unless they can crawl themselves, while wounded, over some line, is honorable. Sounds anything but.
 
ConspiracyKiller said:
One is arrested when they are "VIOLENTLY" "EXPELLED" from their home and “CONSTRAINED” against their will and “ISOLATED” so as to “LIMIT their COMMUNICATIONS” = arrested.
The New York Times article interviewed “THREE SENIOR AMERICAN OFFICIALS” who said Osama bin Laden and the Taliban “have had a VIOLENT falling-out, raising the possibility that his days of refuge may be numbered”.

According to the THREE SENIOR AMERICAN OFFICIALS “a FIGHT broke out” when the Taliban assigned guards to “CONSTRAIN” OBL “for the first time, and tried to limit his communications” as the Taliban guards “EXPELLED” OBL “from Kandahar” and took him to a location where he would be “ISOLATED in the countryside”.

That place in the country side where OBL was “CONSTRAINED” and “ISOLATED” was the prisoner location of OBL where we have learned, from MANY later written articles, that after OBL was arrested, which led to gun fight, the Taliban had asked the US, during the negotiations on how to get rid of OBL, to conduct a missile strike on the “ISOLATED” prisoner location of OBL and even offered to pay for it.

But Clinton was moving out so gave the reports to the Bush administration but Bush said he “was tired of swatting flies” and declassified documents show Bush was not interested in OBL before 9/11.

When I list links with the relevant info above the links I am putting them in chronological order of the events that took place not the order of when the articles were written because some articles that were written later where about declassified documents that further explain what happened in 1999 after the Taliban had ordered guards to “CONSTRAIN” and “ISOLATE” OBL against his will, = arrest, they asked the US to KILL OBL or hand over evidence so he can be extradited or if there was no evidence get a neutral country like Saudi Arabia to take him.
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So it was a "help help i'm being repressed" type of arrest?
 
Travis said:
Yeah, so?

I believe he actually got those weapons from France and Germany. To the best of my recollection the USA never sold him WMD's or any of the equipment to make them.

This contradicts every other international investigation into the matter. Could you please cite some evidence for this like perhaps the actual reports?
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The fact that you do not know this is NOT proof that you are an “IDIOT” but it is PROOF that you, like many other Americans, have been intentionally misinformed and MISLEAD.

U.S. government authorized the sale of dual use chemicals and biological material to Iraq

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former U.S. policymakers shows that U.S. provided intelligence and logistical support, which played a role in arming Iraq in its war with Iran. Under the Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush

administrations, the U.S. authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous dual use items that had both military and civilian applications, including chemicals which can be used in manufacturing of pesticides or chemical weapons and live viruses and bacteria, such as anthrax and bubonic plague used in medicine and the manufacture of vaccines or weaponized for use in biological weapons.

A report of the U.S. Senate's Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs concluded that the U.S. under the successive presidential administrations sold materials including anthrax, and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992. The chairman of the Senate committee, Don Riegle, said: "The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think its a devastating record."[12] According to several former officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in such items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acquire political leverage over Hussein.[13]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq–...use_chemicals_and_biological_material_to_Iraq

The UN said: “chemical weapons on many occasions have been used by Iraqi forces against Iranian forces.”

The US was the only UNSC nation to vote against this statement (the UK abstained from voting). Throughout the Iran/Iraq war, the US also supplied intelligence and tactical help to Iraq.

In 1984, the US gave Iraq access to intelligence information that allowed Iraq to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops, and in 1988 approved technological exports to Iraq's missile procurement agency to extend their missiles' range. More than 60 US Defense Intelligence Agency officers provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when American intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war. (source - NYT, August 17, 2002) http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/18/w...despite-use-of-gas.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
 
The Platypus said:
I don't see how killing someone, unless they can crawl themselves, while wounded, over some line, is honorable. Sounds anything but.
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I'm sure there are many things that the Afghans do that goes against western sensibilities.

But just like westerners have learned to understand and negotiate with, for example, the Japanese and their unusual traditions, beliefs and codes of honor despite that they are in many cases the opposite of what western traditions and beliefs are.

So the same understanding needs to be had when negotiate with the Afghans and other different cultures in the world.

A westerner cant decide that just because other cultures have different traditions, laws etc, that they should be KILLED, BOMBED, EXTERMINATED, and OCCUPIED for over a DECADE.
 
twinstead said:
I've always found those who seem to give militant Muslims a pass for their intolerance while lecturing others about it a bit odd
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First I have NEVER excepted or approved of any religious INTOLERANCE.

The propaganda of your religion is more evil than my religion is one of the oldest and most despicable propaganda techniques used to drive hatred and division throughout history which had been perfected by the Nazis.

But if that's the sick disgusting game you want to play its fine with me.

For every current event of Muslim intolerance/violence that you post I have to post two current events of Christian intolerance/violence.

Also I can play the bible quotes of religious intolerance game where for every quote you post I have to post two quotes of bible intolerance/violence.

And I can play the history of religious intolerance game as well where for every major historical event of intolerance/violence that you post I have to post two major historical events of intolerance/violence by Christians.

Its your game as you started it so LETS SEE WHO WILL WIN!!!
 
ConspiracyKiller said:
First I have NEVER excepted or approved of any religious INTOLERANCE.

The propaganda of your religion is more evil than my religion is one of the oldest and most despicable propaganda techniques used to drive hatred and division throughout history which had been perfected by the Nazis.

But if that's the sick disgusting game you want to play its fine with me.

For every current event of Muslim intolerance/violence that you post I have to post two current events of Christian intolerance/violence.

Also I can play the bible quotes of religious intolerance game where for every quote you post I have to post two quotes of bible intolerance/violence.

And I can play the history of religious intolerance game as well where for every major historical event of intolerance/violence that you post I have to post two major historical events of intolerance/violence by Christians.

Its your game as you started it so LETS SEE WHO WILL WIN!!!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
 
ConspiracyKiller said:
One is arrested when they are "VIOLENTLY" "EXPELLED" from their home and “CONSTRAINED” against their will and “ISOLATED” so as to “LIMIT their COMMUNICATIONS” = arrested.
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So your claim is based on supposition and parsing of context?

But Clinton was moving out so gave the reports to the Bush administration but Bush said he “was tired of swatting flies” and declassified documents show Bush was not interested in OBL before 9/11.
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So? It's all been public knowledge for a decade, Clinton launched cruise missiles against Bin Ladin/al Qaeda. Bush ignored the "Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US" security memo. Is your point Bush screwed up? Gee, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone disagreeing with you there.
 
A W Smith said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
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You threw the first stone and I agreed to throw it back so yes I already said I am willing to play the very SAME game as you and twinstead but with the hopes that maybe you will learn how intolerance STARTS WARS.

I am not going to allow such blatant propaganda, that implies that Jews or Muslims are worse than Christians, go on without a fight! Don't start what you cant finish!

I cant wait until we get to the bible quotes!!!!

These sites and articles list acts of religious intolerance/violence by all religions but the one thing that stands out in the lists of religious intolerance/violence is how much LONGER the Christian lists are and how many more CASUALTIES there are by Christian persecutions.

For example these Jewish, atheist and scholarly sites have every listed act of Jewish persecution and even if you take out the crusades and the Nazi holocaust you will see that Christians have by far committed more act of religious intolerance/violence than ANY other religion in all of history combined yet the Christians are also historically the first to accuse another religion of intolerance just before the Christians begin another one of their military campaigns.

Most Christians are aware of only one of the holocausts that took place to exterminate the Jews when there have been over 250 historical cases of large scale GENOCIDE by Christians against Jews. http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm/

Persecution of Jews over the Centuries
Gerard S. Sloyan
Professor Emeritus of Religion, Temple University http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/persecution.pdf
1. "Kitos War," Wikipedia, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/
2. Randy Felton, "Anti-Semitism and the Church," at: http://www.haydid.org/
3. Fritz B. Voll, "A Short Review of a Troubled History," at: http://www.jcrelations.com/
4. "Classical and Christian Anti-Semitism," at http://www.virtualjerusalem.co.il/
5. Max Solbrekken, "The Jews & Jesus: Mistreatment of Jews: Christian shame," at: http://www.mswm.org/
6. Fritz B. Voll, "A Short Review of a Troubled History," at: http://www.jcrelations.com/
7. Bob Michael, "Jews as Serfs," at: http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/
8. "The Pale of Settlement and the pogroms of 1881 in Russia," at: http://204.165.132.2/crucible/whunts/frames_pogromrussia.htm
9. Fritz B. Voll, "A Short Review of a Troubled History," at: http://www.jcrelations.com/res/incidents.htm#protokols1
10. "The Dreyfus Affair," http://holocaust.miningco.com/msub15.htm
11. "The Kishinev Pogrom of 1903," at: http://www.netwiz.net/~mchavez/familytales/pogrom.htm
12. "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," article. See: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/protocols.html
13. Antisemitic poster from 1920 Germany at: http://holocaust.miningco.com/msub15.htm
14. G.M. Marsden, "Fundamentalism and American Culture," Oxford University Press, Oxford, UK (1980)
15. G.M. Marsden, "Religion and American Culture," Harcourt, San Diego, CA, (1990), Page 220.
16. Robert Fulford, "Historian recalls life as a Jew among the Nazis", Article, Globe and Mail, Toronto ON, 1998-OCT-31.
17. "A Picture Tells a Thousand Words," http://www.primenet.com/~rvolk/english/antiprop/jewish_soap/
18. Jon Henley, "France faces up to wartime role," The Guardian, reprinted in the Toronto Star, 2001-JAN-11, Page A28
19. "Survivors mark Romania pogrom: First memorial to 1941 victims," Associated Press, 2000-DEC-6.
20. "Poles close probe into Jewish wartime massacre," Associated Press. Published in the Toronto Star, Toronto ON, 2002-JUL-9. at: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/
21. "Pogrom," Vecherny Minsk newspaper, Minsk, Belarus, 1967-NOV. See: http://204.165.132.2/crucible/whunts/frames_belarus.htm
22. J. Telushkin, "Jewish Literacy: The Most Important Things to Know About the Jewish Religion, Its People and Its History; Item 241: Antisemitism" William Morrow, (1991). Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store
23. Victor Marsden, translator, "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion," Liberty Bell Publications, (2004). Read reviews or order this hate propaganda safely from Amazon.com online book store
24. Jonathan Frankel, "The Damascus Affair : 'Ritual Murder', Politics, and the Jews in 1840," Cambridge University Press, (1997). Read reviews or order this book

This is just the insignificant beginning of an enormous historical lesson regarding which religion is and has been the most intolerant/violent so I guess I should split this to the religion forum so I can finish destroying the religious propaganda you brought up earlier.

Should I just link it to your earlier post that STARTED this war of intolerance what do you suggest?
 
There must be a relevant point in there somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.
 
Robrob said:
So your claim is based on supposition and parsing of context?

So? It's all been public knowledge for a decade, Clinton launched cruise missiles against Bin Ladin/al Qaeda. Bush ignored the "Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US" security memo. Is your point Bush screwed up? Gee, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone disagreeing with you there.
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In later articles the US intelligence officials called it house arrest but that's not accurate either as it was not OBL's house but was an isolated house in the mountains so that the US could conduct a missile strike without much collateral damage.

This was not just some simple voluntary act by OBL.

Regarding your second question is the fact that the Bush administration was already preparing for war in Afghanistan but others on JREF have said that it was because Bush wanted to apprehend OBL for the USS Cole attack but that was incorrect for the US was still conducting the investigation on the USS Cole before 9/11.

So I have been trying to show that Bush did not care about OBL before 9/11. But that does not mean Bush made a mistake in not going after OBL because even if Bush had killed OBL 9/11 would have still happened but OBL would have died a martyr which could have caused more attacks.

Because Bush did not care about OBL but was preparing for ware means there had to be other motives that far outweighed any reasons for not invading.

Those other motives had not magically disappeared after 9/11 but were still being considered when the US decided to invade. The only difference is that after 9/11 the US had an easier to justify excuse for invading but it was by far NOT the only reason for invading.

So the question is what other motives could their possibly have been that would justify invading the graveyard of empires rather than simply use any one of the many available methods the US could have used to apprehend or kill one old man.
 
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twinstead said:
There must be a relevant point in there somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.
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Funny that he starts off with Jewish persecution yet if you go back to the 14th of May 1948and the formation of the jewish State, That was the match that lit the fuse in MODERN DAY middle east. Christian Zionists support Israel because they recognize an ancestral right of Jews to this land, as suggested, for instance, by Paul in Romans 11. Some also believe that the return of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict

So what were you saying conspiracy killer?
 
ConspiracyKiller said:
So the question is what other motives could their possibly have been that would justify invading the graveyard of empires rather than simply use any one of the many available methods the US could have used to apprehend or kill one old man.
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Oh stop with the "one old man" crap, he was younger than me. They had a whole terrorist network to deal with. They needed to disable it starting at its head. NO ONE believes that capturing or killing the "one old man" as you call him in your word play to diminish his capacity to fund, plan, and initiate terror on a world wide scale, would cripple AQ
 
twinstead said:
There must be a relevant point in there somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.
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Point is don't link to a well known hate filled, Islamophobic, propaganda site that has been denounced by many, including Christians, in order to justify your or others actions/words.
 
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