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Can a Black Hole Not Contain a Singularity?

Fudbucker

Philosopher
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Jul 5, 2012
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I can't post links, but on a physicists blog (Google "black hole without singularity", it's first hit), he speculates it's possible to achieve a black hole without a singularity.

If it didn't have a singularity, could you get out? Or do all your future paths (not phrasing that right, I'm sure), still terminate in the center of the black hole, even if it doesn't have a singularity?
 
The post seems like a fishy argument to me. It's been about 15 years since I took courses in this stuff, but as I understand it, once you're in a black hole you're doomed to be crushed. What the blogger is proposing is that there is a force that is able to withstand the gravity involved, but I can't see how that force would be transmitted outward inside a black hole unless it propagates faster than light.

Basically, it doesn't matter how hard quarks push against each other to support the weight of the matter above them, their push can't travel faster than light, and that is what would be required for it to be transmitted outward. Also, any random downward motion in the object would be permanent, since the particles could never climb back out (again, FTL would be required.)

Someone vastly more knowledgeable about this stuff, like sol invictus, may come by and explain exactly why I'm entirely wrong, but that's my take on the thing.
 
Yeah, it's pretty clear that he is wrong. He says "hey, if you make a ball of matter of mass M and nonzero radius R, and you make R small, it's a black hole!" Yes, but while you're assembling this ball it collapses into a singularity. To avoid such a collapse, it would have to have Lorentz-violating mechanical stiffness.
 
The singularity is a mathematical concept that comes from the equations we currently use to model the universe. It's possible that there are a diffent set of equations that do an equally good job of modeling the observable universe which avoids the singularity. To support this concept, consider a volume of space filled with a uniform density of matter, say one hydrogen atom per cubic meter. Now make the radius of this volume very very large. At some volume on the order of the size of the known universe this mass is within it's own Swartzchild radius and therefore a black hole. However, observation of our universe suggests that we are not collapsing but rather expanding and creating more space.

Perhaps this is the function that applies to black holes. As they reach the critical mass and begin to collapse, the space within expands even faster. There is still no way to get out of such a black hole as at the periphery, space will appear to be expanding at the speed of light.
 
I can't post links, but on a physicists blog (Google "black hole without singularity", it's first hit), he speculates it's possible to achieve a black hole without a singularity.

He's right. His particular proposal may not be valid, but it's certainly possible. In fact, I just posted along these lines in another thread. The thing with singularities is that they're a mathematical phenomena that don't necessarily correspond to physical reality. Most of the time when we come across one, it actually means that the theory your using breaks down and can't handle what you're asking it, not that there must be a real physical phenomenon there.

The popular view of a black hole is that you have a point with zero size but finite mass, and therefore infinite density. But we already know that general relativity doesn't give the right answers when you get down to very small scales, which is why one of the big challenges in modern physics is to get a single theory that agrees with both general relativity at large scales and quantum physics at small scales. So sure, GR gives the simplistic idea of a single point of infinite density, but it's in an area we already know we shouldn't expect GR to give us a reliable answer. So there may well not be a singularity, and most theoretical physicists will hope there isn't because dividing by zero is never a nice result to end up with, but we just don't have a theory that tells us what really is going on yet.

As for his particular solution, yeah, it's nonsense. All he's done is claim that you can take the mass of a neutron star and make it out of bottom quarks instead so it's smaller. That's not how physics works. You can't just replace a bunch of particles with different particles and expect everything to behave exactly the same. As ben m says, his quark star (note that this is not an original idea) would have to be stronger than it is possible for anything to ever be. It's essentially the same as if he said "It's possible to get out of a black hole. Imagine something that travels faster than light. See, you can get out!". Sure, if you imagine something that, as far as we know, can't exist, then you can do all kinds of crazy things. That doesn't mean they have anything to do with the real world.

If it didn't have a singularity, could you get out?

No. Not being able to get out is pretty much the definition of a black hole. Whatever the details of what happens inside the event horizon, you can never cross back out.

Or do all your future paths (not phrasing that right, I'm sure), still terminate in the center of the black hole, even if it doesn't have a singularity?

Even with a singularity you don't necessarily end up in the centre. Not all singularities are simply a point, they can be torus shaped, and probably various other more interesting shapes as well. GR says you'll definitely end up at the singularity though, it just won't necessarily be a single point at the dead centre.
 
I'd bet that there will many varieties of black holes though

It depends what you mean by "varieties". There are differences depending on angular momentum, charge and mass, but otherwise a black hole is pretty much just a black hole.

Also a slight correction to my last post - according to general relativity, it can actually be possible to avoid the singularity in a rotating black hole. However, even more so than the singularity itself these are thought to be problems with GR and aren't expected to exist in reality since they cause all kinds of problems with causality.
 
Unless I'm mistaken, all the singularity at the center of a black hole is, is a term to describe a point where are understanding of physics breaks down. Right now we don't know what happens at the center of a hole because Relativity doesn't work well to describe phenomenon occuring at such small scales and Quantum theory doesn't work to describe phenomenon at such high energy levels.

As such, as soon as we can figure out and describe what actually happens there, then *no* black holes will have a singularity - they'll have whatever name the new physics gives to the phenomenon.

In any case - the event horizon is simply a function of density and is simply the point where escape velocity is equal to light speed. So a black hole without a "singularity" would still have an event horizon kinda by definition - if it doens't have an event horizon then it's not a hole. And if you've got an event horizon then there's no escaping from the hole once you reach that distance from the hole.
 
The post seems like a fishy argument to me. It's been about 15 years since I took courses in this stuff, but as I understand it, once you're in a black hole you're doomed to be crushed. What the blogger is proposing is that there is a force that is able to withstand the gravity involved, but I can't see how that force would be transmitted outward inside a black hole unless it propagates faster than light.

This is one of the newer embellishments to theory - that the stars collapse will be stopped before infinity by an as yet undiscovered mechanism. Not completely crazy as regular stars are stopped from gravitational collapse first by thermal pressure, then electron degeneracy pressure (white dwarfs), then by neutron degeneracy pressure (neutron stars). Currently there's no known mechanism to stop collapse if the stars gravity is greater than it neutron degeneracy pressure and so it collapses into a black hole.

According to these theories, at some point collapsing object will reach the maximum possible energy density for a certain volume of space (the Planck density)where the known laws of gravity cease to be valid. There are competing theories as to what occurs at this point.
 
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Yeah, it's pretty clear that he is wrong. He says "hey, if you make a ball of matter of mass M and nonzero radius R, and you make R small, it's a black hole!" Yes, but while you're assembling this ball it collapses into a singularity. To avoid such a collapse, it would have to have Lorentz-violating mechanical stiffness.

Exactly. He's wrong, because once the radius is below the Schwarzschild radius, no collection of matter (or anything else) can resist the gravitational force.

At least no known matter - new laws of physics could come into play at the would-be singularity and prevent it from forming, but that's not what he's saying.
 
According to these theories, at some point collapsing object will reach the maximum possible energy density for a certain volume of space (the Planck density)where the known laws of gravity cease to be valid. There are competing theories as to what occurs at this point.

The guy in the blog post is saying that if we just make a neutron star a bit more dense it would have an event horizon but would not collapse inside that event horizon. He's not proposing some sort of hypothetical collection of chunks of Big-Bang-density material clumped together in the middle of the hole.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were some surprises lurking in the bottom of a black hole, but I don't think that infinitely strong conventional matter is going to be that surprise.
 
Google on Bose-Einstein condensate "black hole" and there's some interesting stuff.
 

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