Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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Will,

I'm going to give femr2 about 10 days to figure out where he went wrong. If he hasn't figured it out by then, I'm going to digitize his velocity curves directly from his graphs, calculate the derivatives, and then compare those competently calculated acceleration curves to the ones he's been feeding us. At the very least, that will provide a dramatic visual demonstration of the true uncertainty in femr2's acceleration graphs.

Why am I giving femr2 10 days? Because the digitization, calculations, and construction of overlay graphs will take several hours of my time, and I'm too busy right now to waste that much time on femr2's obvious mistakes.

This might save you a little time.

Here are my previously posted charts, after filtering, of femr's data, showing that proper filtering of the data does NOT produce such absurd distortions of the data.

Of course, one of the things that I did was to scan them for self-consistency before I posted them.

The first three are for the short periods just before release (t = 1.5 to 5 seconds}, when the roofline point was bouncing up & down due to vibrations within the collapsing building. It's useful to show the transformations from position to velocity to acceleration vs time with rapidly varying inputs. (i.e., to validate one's filters.)


Position vs. Time.
picture.php



Velocity vs. Time
picture.php



Acceleration vs. Time
picture.php



Note the zero acceleration crossings at {2.18, 2.52, 3.12, 3.42, 3.80, 4.18} seconds.

Note concomitant inflection points in the velocity graph at {2.20, 2.55, 3.15, 3.46, 3.80, 4.20} seconds.

Pretty good agreement. Errors might be a slight time shift due to filters or just my eyeballing the inflection points, but the results are self consistent.

Similarly, there are zero velocity crossings at {2.22, 2.89, 4.00, 4.36} seconds.

The position graph shows inflection points at {2.38, 2.92, 4.00, 4.32} seconds.

Same. Seems to be a slight time shift due to the filters, but good consistency between the graphs.
___

Here is the same data, using the same filters, during the collapse, from t = 3.5 to 9.0 seconds

Position vs. Time.
picture.php


Velocity vs. Time
picture.php


Acceleration vs. Time
picture.php



tom

PS. If femr wasn't in the midst of a snit, he'd likely tell you where the raw data was, so that you didn't have to digitize it.

If you decide that my graphs aren't enough to make your point, or if you just want to play with very, very, very used & tattered toys, I'll be happy to forward you the raw & filtered spreadsheet data that I've got.
 
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Might be worth a reminder of tfk's previous acceleration profile derived from my data...
51514794.png


There's something familiar there, I think.

446763612.jpg


Yep, definitely something familiar goin'on. (17-08-2010)



Compared to TFK's latest acceleration profile:

picture.php



Which is nice, but it will need to be smoothed to give it physical meaning.

Recall the word "trend". We are looking for physical meaning.


Yes, definitely a pattern emerging.


................................


To help give physical meaning to the >g portion, it is important to remember the feature being measured:

346289729.gif



Now, if one traces multiple points like this:


measure.jpg



One will see an interesting interplay between the nw corner of the building and the nw corner of the penthouse.

A "yank". The nw corner of the penthouse actually slows while the nw corner of the building speeds up in the >g region.

It is the play between the dark blue and magenta trace points that help give physical meaning to the >g action.
 
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LOL. Classic.


Saves you admitting your gross distortions.


And yet again you base your assertion that "it's not" on an incomparable sample window.

Interesting to see what you will do to attempt to criticise the data though.


Why not derive the original raw data ? You have it.


To make any valid comparison, you must use a 0.83s window.

If you don't, all you're moaning about is that you might have chosen a different width.

You need days ? lol.

How about...

http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/7/2/62994846.jpg

Awesome. Useful as :rolleyes:


LOL. Oh what fun. I'm sure you can choose a number of piecemeal fits to suit your purpose.


Or, alternatively, simply that you choose to reduce the velocity plot into a number of your personally chosen sections, regardless of the true behaviour you obliterate with reducing it to a small number of linear fits.


Take as long as you like Will.

If you don't like SG smoothing, you really shouldn't be using the velocity data.

Start with the raw data, and most of all, have fun :)

We just went back 2 years. Awesome. Got to love you guys ;)


You do realize that you don't hold the dimmest of candles in comparison to WD's expertise in these exact issues, don't you?

Nah. Probably not.
Where is that "munching popcorn" graphic when you need it...?


The graphs that I posted prove that the gross distortions and inconsistencies in the velocity & acceleration graphs that you posted are not inevitable consequences of noise filtering.

Just the result of clueless noise filtering.

Or not knowing which of your graphs is which.

Also proves that, unlike software, you can't buy understanding. You got to earn it.

And name-dropping is not the same as understanding.
 
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Logical Issues in the 9/11 Debates

When debating, there are certain techniques that are often not allowed by debate moderators because they bypass the chain of logical argument in the creation of a credible case. In the absence of a monitor, we can "call" each other when one side uses one of these "propaganda techniques". Here are some important logical issues to be aware of on both sides of the argument:

Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence: --Carl Sagan. Richard Gage's extraordinary claim is that the WTC buildings were brought down on 9/11 by secret controlled demolition. A high bar of a reasoned counter claim consisting of sound logical argument based on objective evidence is required to back an extraordinary claim. This is the standard I am holding Gage to, and I do not believe he has succeeded.

Innuendo Pointing to Falsehood: Also argument from suspicion. The attempt to foment suspicion and claim that the "unanswered" questions they have point to willful acts of coverup, commission of treason, etc. A clear charge might be considered libelous; in the absence of proof there is a resort to innuendo. This obfuscates the truth instead of serving it. A good example is the claim that the Bush family had a stake in the Ace Elevator Company, which was doing elevator maintenance work on the towers prior to 9/11. To my knowledge, no one has ever directly accused George W. using the "elevator repair ruse" to plant explosives. The innuendo is left there for people to come to their own conclusion but no furthere evidence of direct White House collusion with this elevator company is ever offerred.

Reversal of Burden of Proof; Requiring Proving a Negative: When 9/11 CD advocates use innuendo as proof of controlled demoliton, the next step is to try to place the burden of proof on their opponent: "you prove that I'm wrong!" A classic example of this was in my debate with Richard Gage, where he said, "My opponent must explain [several phenomena such as iron-rich spheres, molten steel etc.] or the debate is over." In my debate and in the YouTube videos, I set out to do just that, voluntarily accepting the burden of proof, but Richard Gage offerred innuendo as proof when the burden of proof belonged to him, since he has made the extraordinary claim of controlled demoltion. Another related tactic is to demand that I prove a negative: "prove that there isn't thermite in the dust! Prove that the buildings weren't brought down by controlled demolition!" Proving a negative is impossible. If you say I am a government spy, how can I prove I am not?

"Never Before" Canard: NIST, Richard Gage and I agree that the 9/11 catastrophe is without precedent, but the fact that something has never happened before is not evidence that it couldn't have happened. No large ocean liner exactly like The Titanic has ever sunk either. And as I point out in one of my videos, there are several conspiracy theories and even a hefty book claiming that the Titanic never did sink, that is was a massive insurance fraud, that the ship continued to secretly ply the waters of the world for decades! (If you don't believe me, google "conspiracy theories Titanic")

Strawman Argument: If NIST or I or any other natural collapse advocate makes an argument in our favor, it's important that the response to that argument meet it head-on and not present a different version of the opponent's argument (we all must be held to this standard). A strawman is a "watered down" parody of the original claim - weakend to make it easier to rebut. The reader must be sure that each opposing argument is being fairly summarized and not "watered down" before considering the merits of the rebuttal.

Ad hominem attack:
My opponent is not an MIT professor so nothing he says has any merit. My opponent has ties to the CIA (or the government) so of course he's lying. My opponent is not a physicist and he made a mistake so nothing he says can be taken seriously, and we should not cast our pearls before swine (the "Pearls Before Swine" YouTube attack video against me by David Chandler is classic ad hominem). Similarly, ad hominem attacks against "twoofers" are a form of entertainment on the JREF 9/11 threads (but the 9/11 Truth assertions are also thoroughly rebutted).. Ad hominem is an attack against an individual, an attempt to demolish their credibility by ascribing dark motives, ties to evil institutions, insanity, stupidity or general incompetence to them so their arguments need no reply.

Irrelevant: Sometimes a true statement can be made which is not relevant to the issue. It is often presented in a manner that implies that it adds to the counter argument. An example: In reason 9 in chrismohr911.com, I refer to some relatively minor structural damage below the crash site (doors that couldn't open any more, etc.). When I was "called" on this, I agreed that minor structural damage below the crash site was irrelevant to the cause and process of the WTC Towers' collapses. With zero structural damage below the crash site, the result would have been about the same.

False Comparison: Comparing the WTC Towers to high-rises that did NOT fail in fires, or for that matter my comparison of the global collapse of the WTC Buildings with the partial collapse at Delft, must be done carefully to avoid false comparisons. Both sides will bring in comparable examples to make their point, and both sides will accuse the other of false comparison. Whenever either side is bringing forth a comparison, the differences between 9/11 and the event comparison should also be admitted to so that a fair judgment can be made as to what the comparison can actually demonstrate.

Unsupported Conjecture: Also appeal to magic.
A statement like "The CIA and the military have huge budgets and state of the art technology so their seccret weapons can have properties that no one else's has" is impossible to respond to. I can only respond to what we know about the properties of thermitic materials, for example. No one has EVER produced a quiet explosive that can hurl multi-ton hunks of steel 600 feet away. To conjecture that the US military has somehow done something that would be otherwise impossible is a belief, not a scientific argument.

Argument from Incredulity: I can't believe it, or it doesn't look to be so, therefore it can't be so. Incredulity is a "common-sense" impulse and both sides of the argument have it. For example, my initial response to the CD theory was nah, they couldn't pull off a secret demolition of all three of those buildings. I could just reject such a claim outright based on my own incredulity, or I could actually look at the arguments in favor of it being possible. When I looked at the 9/11 CD arguments, however, I got a mishmash of wildly contradictory hypotheses. Three or four people could have done it. Thousands of people were in on it. They painted the beams with thermite. The planted shaped charges. They cowed everyone into silence. Each hypothesis was easily refuted. On the 9/11 Truth side, the argument from incredulity can be stated as, "How could three buildings fall down so fast in a single day? Where's the resistance to the collapse?" These arguments by themselves prove nothing; they have to look very carefully at the NIST Report and other scientific papers, talk to scientists personally, etc. before concluding that their incredulity is valid. It is the reasoned arguments based on objective data, not the initial incredulity, that carries weight in this debate.


False Application of Common Sense: We develop common sense from experience in day-to-day matters. Common sense does not apply to the collapse of skyscrapers, which is not something we experience in our day to day lives; we must rely on scientific research to determine what happened. Common sense tells me that if I see a dog with its fangs bared, barking menacingly and raising its hackles, I am in danger of being bitten and should back away slowly. This is based on experience, direct or indirect, and is a part of the normal life experience of people living in neighborhoods where dogs share our common space. Common sense tells me nothing about the behavior of light particles in a gravitational field; that requires that I study Einstein's theories. Similarly, I have no database of commonly held experiences to draw from when I witness the collapse of three skyscrapers in a single day.

False Global Claim: the NIST report says that perimeter collapse started the initiation stage for the Twin towers. NIST is wrong - it was core first. Therefore all NIST material is totally wrong. A related example: claiming that any detail applies everywhere without regard for either relevance or significance. For example the above conflict between "core led" and "perimeter led' does not change the NIST claim that "initiation" had a stage where the "top block" started to fall. The core vs perimeter conflict does not change the next higher level - whether core led or perimeter the top block still fell. So it is irrelevant (until someone shows it is relevant). The "default " is "irrelevant until shown relevant".

Socio-political claims: People who believe in shadow governments are more likely to embrace the 9/11 controlled demolition theory; patriotic Americans are more likely to reject them. I have chosen to separate socio-political arguments into a different category and focus almost exclusively on the technical aspects of the 9/11 CD theory. Even if a secret government were proven, this is not proof of the technical CD claims of Richard Gage (and Gage agrees with me on this point). Nevertheless, I have reluctantly ventured into this realm a little bit to at least offer some challenging questions to 9/11 Truth advocates.

Argument from Authority: The fact that someone is not a specialist in the field they are discussing does not negate what they say. A 26 year old patent clerk named Albert Einstein came up with the relativity theory, after all. Nevertheless, expert testimony carries more weight than that of nonexperts. See my "hierarchay of credibility" for information I receive re 9/11 controlled demolistion vs natural collapse.
 
Seems to me that you have identified all the most commonly employed bits of truther or troll trickery Chris. Well done.

thumbup.gif


...and I support the "both ways" bit - "debunkers" IMO should be even more rigorous in using proper arguments. There is no justification for being lazy or foggy thinking just because "we" are on the winning and truthful side. :rolleyes:

BTW have you posted your "hierarchay of credibility" - you may be in time ooops. Too late to edit a link.


(and to spell check "hierarchay" :o )
 
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To help give physical meaning to the >g portion, it is important to remember the feature being measured:
http://femr2.ucoz.com/_ph/7/2/346289729.gif

Now, if one traces multiple points like this:
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3124/measure.jpg

One will see an interesting interplay between the nw corner of the building and the nw corner of the penthouse.

A "yank". The nw corner of the penthouse actually slows while the nw corner of the building speeds up in the >g region.

It is the play between the dark blue and magenta trace points that help give physical meaning to the >g action.
That is what I have been saying all along. The Interior columns could pull the exterior columns down at >g for a moment until they equalized - if all the supporting structure were removed from both.

Please post the rest of the set like this with the corresponding time on the FEMR graphs so we can see the relationship.

170sd.jpg


275su.jpg


380s.jpg


485s.jpg


590sg.jpg
 
My Hierarchy of Credibility

Incredible numbers of people have weighed in with opinions and explanations of how the WTC Buildings collapsed on 9/11. Some have more credibility than others. Who makes the argument is less important than the quality of that argument. The factual argument is true independent of the qualifications of the person presenting it - that over-rides all the credibility issues. Likewise, if it is false, the falsity "wins" even if the presenter is a multi-PhD and has had the paper "peer reviewed". Nevertheless, certain investigative processes carry more weight with me than others. Here is a list of the kinds of people and organizations whose opinions I have researched, and what weight I give their conclusions, in order from most to least credible:


1) Peer reviewed scientific papers written by specialists have the highest credibility, especiallay if other specialists have replicated or supported their central findings. The NIST Report has very high credibility in the worldwide scientific community. The Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, ARUP, Universities of Pennsylvania, Purdue, Hawaii, etc. have all supported and expanded upon the major findings of the NIST Report. Claims that NIST has committed fraud and violated basic laws of physics while under the microscope of such intense peer review are not credible to me. Early peer-reviewed papers by Thomas Eagar, Eduardo Kasel and others point in the general direction of the final conclusions of the NIST Report, but some of these early hypotheses were later supplanted by more nuanced understandings. Post-NIST Report, the CTBUH studies offered variations on the NIST summary which have credibility for me (thermal expansion of beams during heating followed by thermal contractionb when the fires moved on, for example). All of these credible scientists have been part of an evolving theory of natural collapse of the WTC Buildings.

Nothing they say is gospel or set in stone; new details have caused several revisions in the theory along the way. "Peer reviewed" does not guarantee that the paper or its claims are correct. It is only a threshold for admission into academic/professional discussion. It may be more likely to be correct than a non peer-reviewed blog entry, but cannot be presumed to be. "Peer-reviewing" is a process in traditional science where other qualified scientists try to poke holes in the research and suggest alternative explanations for the data, but the absence of peer review does not invalidate the argument.

2.) Opinions of specialists not involved in the 9/11 debate. I have talked to 14 physicists and got onto a physics chat room to ask questions about static vs dynamic loads, weight vs mass, momentum, formulae for energy expendituires, etc. I have also talked with engineers, heavy equipment operators, first responjders from 9/11, structural engineers, other engineers, a structural engineering chat room, etc. etc. etc. I ask technical questions, they answer, and they are not involved in the 9/11 debate.

3.) "White papers" by scientists. These are not peer-reviewed, not published in a major scientific journal, and often written by people who venture out of their areas of specialized training. On Debunking 9/11 Debunking by Ryan Mackey, for example, is the work of an aeronatical engineer. He is a generalist but well-trained in the scientific method; his claims are backed by extensive research and synthesis of the conclusions of people in category (1) above. When physics teacher David Chandler talks physics, his training carries more authority than my training would. Same with Richard Gage, whose experience as an architect on major projects gives him a grasp of structure that I don't have (but less authority than a structural engineer). Kevin Ryan's knowledge of chemistry, Steven Jones's understanding of physics: all of these 9/11 Truth advocates have a level of technical skill sets that surpass my own. But none of them have the kind of specialized training that makes them true authorities at the level of an MIT physics professor talking about the collapse mechanisms of the WTC Buildings. Importantly, all of these people have veered away from their areas of expertise. Ryan Mackey's psychological explanations of 19/11 Truth advocates has less credibility due to his lack of training in psychology; Kevin Ryan's research into the ties of prominent scientists to the CIA are little more than ad hominem attacks and are incredibly inaccurate, as I discovered when I was on the receiving end of one of his blog posts: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212725&page=86 start at post 3435.

By definition, anyone who speaks about every aspect of the CD theory will have to venture out of their areas of expertise: for example, when Richard Gage talks about chemistry, he is no longer in an area of expertise for him.

4.) Journalists with professional training and experience in "separating the wheat from the chaff" by asking questions of people on both sides of an issue. That would be me... and NY Times reporters and journalists from major media outlets. However, not all journalists really do their homework. Some will accept government statements and press rfeleases and just write up a story, so the quality of journalistic investigation has to be taken into account before accepting their work at face value.

5.) JREF, 9/11 Truth and other blogs.
Some of the people have strong technical backgrounds and "know their stuff." They also have a belief and they tend to filter what they read through their belief (we all do this).

6.) YouTube videos (like my own and countless 9/11 Truth and debunker videos). Every video is edited to make you see what the creator wants you to see. But there is still valuable info and visual evidence available even in this realm.

7.) Unsupported opinions of nonscientists
on blogs or in emails to me.

8.) Neo-Nazi sites
make me physically ill and I am unable to even look at material presented there.


Process Credibility

The peer-review process has a high degree of credibility for me. Journalistic investigation has a lower degree of credibility and depends on the intellectual honesty of the reporter. However, my journalistic experience and training makes it easier for me to look at an argument from any source and ask if the process of soundly reasoned argument based on objective evidence is at play, whatever the status of the one advocating it.

The process Richard Gage engages is has very low credibility for me. Richard Gage takes his arguments to the general lay public and not before a panel of scientists. People with no scientific training are asked to come to conclusions about events which require a high degree of knowledge about structural engineering, physics and chemistry. No serious researcher:
1) presents his/her case on YouTube or the internet or on radio talk shows; 2) just asks questions, and draws no conclusions; 3) asks the public to decide for themselves.

What they do is prepare their arguments very, very carefully, consult with experts in the pertinent fields & then submit them to peer-reviewed publications. Then they bring their results to panels of experts within the field. Gage has not presented his theories to the MOST prestigious panel of structural engineers that he can find, rather than college campuses and public meetings? Ask the AIA, of which gage is a member, what they think of him. Serious researchers draw conclusions. As many as they can. If they have no conclusions to present, they keep quiet until they can present conclusions, but the process has less credibility for me. This in and of itself does not invalidate his claims. The first need for Gage is to start presenting sound reasoned arguments based on objective assessment of evidence. If he does that he will be better placed. His ideas can become accepted by the mainstream if he first gets credibility among scientists who know these subjects well. The fear that scientists will shy away from his position because of possible threats to their careers has no traction outside the U.S., where scientists from Germany, India and other countries can research this with fewer political constraints. Gage's latest video, Experts Speak Out, is their best effort to date to compile a collection of opinions of qualified professionals to present their arguments. However, these are videotaped opinions that have not been through the peer-review process, and do not represent experts' actual research and study.
 
Your "Hierarchy of Credibility" reminds me of my old proposal "The Gravy Line."

Ultimately the issue of credibility is in the eye of the beholder, so while your list is reasonable, you should expect some variations on the theme. Personally, apart from validated theories (the very top) and peer-reviewed papers (second best), I'm more interested in whether a proposition can be at least partially supported with sound and unambiguous fact. I'd seek out a respected expert in any given field first, but failing that even 'blog posts could be credible if they lay out a coherent, self-consistent thesis, and support bits of it along the way with verifiable fact or repeatable calculations.

You are also very unlikely to need this sort of ranking mechanism. In nearly all situations your standard of proof will be "the preponderance of evidence." It is rare that you will have two roughly comparable hypotheses, only differentiable on the basis of their credibility. In most situations of this type, both hypotheses should be considered plausible until a decisive test can be conducted.

As a coda to the above, no Truther theory has ever been solid enough to test in the first place. Every one has failed on contact with existing evidence -- in the few cases where a hypothesis exists at all.
 
C7 said:
Times rounded to nearest tenth of a second:
Your acceleration line shows acceleration going from release to g between 12.0 and 12.8s while the velocity line shows the release is ~12.3s and g is attained ~12.4s.

If you dispute this interpretation, be specific as to the times of transition as I have done.
Nope. Release is <12s.
You did not give a specific time and you do not address the discrepancy between the two graphs.
I believe you said release was ~11.9s in your acceleration graph. At 11.9s, the line is above the zero line. How can acceleration be above the zero line? Do you think the building was accelerating upward between 11.7s and 11.9s? Don't you understand that that is just "noise*"?

886374797.jpg


If you interpret the release point on the velocity graph to be 11.9s to match your acceleration line, then it goes to 1's in about 0.1s and stays at 1's for 0.3s and then stops descending for ~0.1s - but your acceleration line says it is increasing in downward acceleration during that time period.


Your longer time span graph shows "noise*" between 1s and 12s. There is no acceleration during this period

*The variance is imperfect readings due to the graininess of the video.
The point is: You can't interpret the data points literally as they obviously vary around the actual acceleration due to the graininess of the video. To get the actual acceleration it is necessary to find a "best fit" line. Between 1s and 12s that 'best fit" line is zero. The building is stationary. It is NOT jumping up and down.

femr4ec.jpg


Your opinion of me is irrelevant so keep it to yourself and give specific times please.
 
The point is: You can't interpret the data points literally as they obviously vary around the actual acceleration due to the graininess of the video.

While trivially true, this is not the complete answer. You can't simply decide that some features are genuine acceleration and others are noise. You have to actually measure the noise level on something whose behaviour is already known; for example, measure the apparent rate of movement of a building that hasn't been damaged and doesn't subsequently collapse. I'd like to suggest that as a profitable activity for femr2; if you take another building on the same video and do the same analysis, what sort of apparent movement do you see? For confidence I'd be inclined to look at a couple of buildings, nearer to and further from the camera than WTC7.

To get the actual acceleration it is necessary to find a "best fit" line.

As usual, this claim betrays a total lack of understanding of any kind of experimental science.

Dave
 
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So NIST and Chandler have a total lack of understanding of any kind of experimental science and you know better. :rolleyes:

In short: Chandler yes (total lack of understanding), NIST no.

That's why NIST generously laces their description of the acceleration profile with words such as "about", "approximately", "equivalent to" etc.
 
BTW thanks go out to Pgimeno, Ozeco, Oystein and others in directly and indirectly helping me compile the logical issues as well as the "hierarchy of credibility." Ryan's old post and his attempt to actually quantify credibility (in a light way) is so good, I am going to link that as well. All of this will appear at the beginning of chrismohr911.com, in my re-re-rebuttal box. I hope the 9/11 truth side will respond with their own list, which should be interesting. I agree of course that well-reasoned arguments supported by evidence trumps the "hierarchy".
 
Regarding smoothing, I'm no expert, but...

Oystein said:
Is the SG window ~0.83s

Am I right that we are talking about an event (measured portion of a building collapse) that took around 5 or 6 seconds? And in femr2's charts, we are "smoothing" that data by taking a moving average of 50 "fields" taken from 25 frames at 30 fps?

And that some are now "zooming" in to look at periods of a few tenths of a second within that data?

Am I right that the moving average taken over 0.83 seconds can't say much about a specific period of 2 tenths of a second? Or am I over-thinking this?
 
So NIST and Chandler have a total lack of understanding of any kind of experimental science and you know better. :rolleyes:

I see you can't read for comprehension either. But I suppose I already knew that.

A straight line fit, as NIST are well aware, will give the average acceleration over a time interval, and this may or may not be a good approximation to the instantaneous acceleration at any instant in that time period. That's why, as Oystein points out, they qualify their statements on the value of the acceleration.

As to what the idiot Chandler says, why should I care?

Dave
 
BTW thanks go out to Pgimeno, Ozeco, Oystein and others in directly and indirectly helping me compile the logical issues as well as the "hierarchy of credibility.
You believe what you want to believe. You take the word of anonymous posters as gospel and consider the experts in the "Experts Speak Out" video to be a bunch of fools despite the fact they are highly qualified and have decades of experience.

You promote the asinine leverage theory [with its magically appearing massive weight] despite the total lack of data as to how it could apply to the collapse of WTC 7. That is junk [baseless] science.

You say that WTC 7 was leaning based on the say so of one firefighter and a second hand account of an officer saying it was leaning. The photographic evidence shows that claim to be erroneous. NIST would have mentioned it if WTC 7 were in fact leaning. If you understood physics you could figure out that if WTC 7 were leaning it would have fallen to that side. But it fell straight down for 100 feet and then a little to one side when it hit resistance. Will you continue to promote that "leaning" disinformation as fact?

You still say that every floor of WTC 7was on fire despite NIST saying only 10 floors were on fire and the floors above floor 13 had burned out by about 1 p.m. I have shown you the quotes from the NIST reports saying that it was smoke being drawn into a low pressure area created by the breeze from the north and I showed you the same phenomenon at the NE corner but nothing penetrates your steadfast faith in a few firefighters who overstated the fires.
Now hear this. The same phenomenon occurred to WFC 3 with the dust from WTC 2. Do you think every floor of WFC 3 is on fire or belching dust due to an internal collapse? Or will you retract and correct your assertion that the upper floors of WTC 7 were on fire?

smokeupsideofwfc3.jpg


Do you have any respect for Lynn Margulis? She thinks the NIST reports are NOT science. She is well qualified to talk about the scientific method. Check out her credentials and compare them to the credentials of the posters here. Believe what you want.

Ryan's old post and his attempt to actually quantify credibility
And what are Ryan's credentials exactly? He bills himself as a "NASA scientist" but what relevant courses did he take to qualify him to say he knows better than someone with a BS in physics, a masters in math, a masters in teaching and decades of experience teaching math and physics? BTW: Who are you to say he doesn't know what he is talking about? His "attack" on you was a response to your attack on him so don't cry about it. There is no reason to deny that WTC 7 fell at FFA other than not being able to accept what that implies. The attacks on Chandler are unfounded and repugnant.

If you think I'm being a jerk then consider yourself a jerk for all the insulting things you say about Richard Gage, David Chandler and the architects and engineers of AE911Truth. If you can't take it, don't dish it out!
 
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Do you have any respect for Lynn Margulis? She thinks the NIST reports are NOT science. She is well qualified to talk about the scientific method. Check out her credentials and compare them to the credentials of the posters here.
A once-talented biologist that, towards the end of her life, promoted wacky ideas about symbiosis, HIV / AIDS denial and 9/11 truth. That's a real winner there.

By the way, she hasn't been well qualified to talk about anything since last November.
 
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A once-talented biologist that, towards the end of her life, promoted wacky ideas about symbiosis, HIV / AIDS denial and 9/11 truth. That's a real winner there.
To you and your ilk, anyone who doubts the official explanation of the destruction of the TT and WTC 7 is wacko, no matter how qualified they are. Your consistency in automatically trashing who doubts the official explanation is very revealing.

By the way, she hasn't been well qualified to talk about anything since last November.
How cold blooded can you get? :mad:
 
To you and your ilk, anyone who doubts the official explanation of the destruction of the TT and WTC 7 is wacko, no matter how qualified they are. Your consistency in automatically trashing who doubts the official explanation is very revealing.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's because anyone who doubts that fire and damage brought down the WTC complex is wacko? (Please note that I deliberately did not say "official explanation", because one can disagree with the NIST report without disagreeing with damage+fire did it.)
 
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