General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[LemmyCaution]

No, as I have said, I haven't read the book. I don't know if it blows a huge hole in my beliefs. But you're correct that I don't know how to react to it because I don't know what it says. I'd ask you for a summary but given your track record for misunderstanding what I and other people say, I'm not sure if I trust your accuracy.

Or instead of this waffling, huffing and puffing, and handwaving - with the random snipe at Nessie thrown in - you could have, in 15 -20 minutes, read the article by Rigg I linked to.

A better source on this IIRC is an essay by Jeremy Noakes in some collection of essays I can't quite place, and I can't find the reference. If anyone can, I'd be in his or her debt . . .

Cadaver dogs. I don't know how they do with bodies in a wax fat transformation state but Kola said they made his drill bits really smelly. The surface of the camps being littered with body parts might confuse the dogs somewhat but there should be a workaround for that. Bring a couple of cadaver dogs out the AR camps and see what they can find.

Anyway, Sturdy Colls is working the Treblinka site without cadaver dogs. Patience.

 

[A'isha]

Her conclusion repeats this strange claim

"At least 150,000 Jews served in Hitler’s honorable Nazi-Sozi Wehrmacht. Nearly 20,000 received his personally approved review and clemency, as he spent hours upon hours reviewing Jewish clemency papers, so as not to wrongfully intern and deport decent Jewish people. The truth of the matter is, Hitler was very lenient with Jewry, and the Jews were far safer under his rule than the Russians had been under [the two Jews] Lenin or Stalin’s rule. Hitler was a kind-hearted and generous man who gave Jews more than enough monetary and moral compensation while he was in power."

I like how this denier's dumb conclusion completely contradicts Clayton's own dumb thesis about how the Nazis only killed Jews because they were all Commies working for Germany's mortal enemy...Stalin!

 

[LemmyCaution]

I suppose there are Jews in Poland today but I'm talking about Jewish communities outside of Europe.

There are.

I said go to places where there are large Jewish communities and look for elderly Jews with Eastern European accents if you want to find survivors. If you did that in Poland I suspect all the elderly Jews would have eastern European accents. Probably all the young ones too. Maybe even the non-Jews in Poland would have eastern European accents.

What in the heck is an eastern European accent, given the different languages spoken in eastern Europe?

You'd expect families who work in magazine publishing to know about any secret Jewish holocaust communities that might exist? Why is that? Is that because you think da Joos control the mass media? And no I am not going to retract my extremely stupid claim that there are elderly holocaust survivors living in Jewish communities today. It's not an extremely stupid or even a stupid claim. You can find elderly holocaust survivors living in communities that are not predominately Jewish as well but I'd start with the Jewish communities. Do you really need help with this? Beverly Hills, Larchmont, or Fairfax if you're in the LA area would be one place to look. If you like the east coast, try Crown Heights. I hear Boca Raton has a couple of elderly Jews as well.

So what?

 

[LemmyCaution]

You have the links at hand, just post them. What is so hard about this that you can't just show us rather than making us do your dirty work for you?

I would guess it's not "relevant." Or not a "point of contention." Or something.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Since most of those where Mischlings and not full blooded Jews (the article quotes "It is documented that at least 306 officers in the German military were Jews" but then "At least 150,000 Jews served in Hitler’s honorable Nazi-Sozi Wehrmacht") it would be a more accurate conclusion to say Hitler was prepared to be lenient to Mischlings who were prepared to work, fight and be loyal to him. The rest, mostly full blooded Jews, well they got no exemptions.

Does the article say where "it is documented" and explain how there were more Mischlinge in the Wehrmacht than there were Mischlinge?

 

[LemmyCaution]

"He undoubtedly did care about Jews, and the fact that he allowed at least 150,000 Jews to fight for Germany during WWII, as well as the fact that he personally granted nearly 20,000 Jews exemption from internment means that revisionism is imperative to historical accuracy.

Because, I guess, of their Communist affiliations?

Denial is a grab-bag of negationist reflexes - which you can see by the way Mr Moore googles and regurgitates whatever he thinks helps him out, no matter it contradicts another denier, and by the way Dogzilla says he doesn't know what happened and doesn't care.

Note: ANTPogo beat me to the punch on this own goal by two deniers, "guru" and, er, forum member.

 

[Dogzilla]

Ever stop to think that maybe the operator error was yours?

No, because my search query was successful.

 

[LemmyCaution]

More clean up, on the question of Mischlinge and exemptions, the article I recalled was by Jeremy Noakes. A review in H-Net says that Rigg based his stuff on Noakes.

http://leobaeck.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/1/291.extract

http://books.google.com/books?id=6p...#v=onepage&q=jeremy noakes mischlinge&f=false

 

[thedopefishlives]

No, because my search query was successful.

Yes, and perhaps that's the problem. Maybe you searched for the wrong terms, found some results that seemingly supported your position, and went into a bit of a premature denier-gasm without realizing that your search was faulty.

 

[TSR]

A better source on this IIRC is an essay by Jeremy Noakes in some collection of essays I can't quite place, and I can't find the reference. If anyone can, I'd be in his or her debt . . .

Would that be "The Development of Nazi Policy Towards the German-Jewish 'Mischlinge' 1933-1945," in Leo Baeck Institute Year Book 34?

ETA: D'oh! Beat me to it.

 

[Nick Terry]

Then I guess the fact that there were Jews still alive at the end of the war means that nobody exterminated them either?

Your strawmen are exceedingly tedious. I suggest you try wrapping your head around the UN Convention on Genocide and see whether your semantic games can cope with the wording:

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I'd also suggest that everyone else simply reposts this article from the UN Convention every time Dogzilla brings up his exceedingly tedious 100% extermination strawman.

 

[LemmyCaution]

All. Wanted. All. 100%. No survivors.

I am not going to wait for Dogzilla and Mr Moore to post their extensively researched comparative review of source material on the mass extermination of Japanese American internees in the US versus that for the genocide of European Jews carried out by the Nazis. I just don't think this review is forthcoming.

But by all means since in both cases there were survivors - albeit in the Holocaust something like one in three European Jews whilst in the case of the Japanese Americans basically everyone - the two policies must be the same . . . ???

 

[LemmyCaution]

Would that be "The Development of Nazi Policy Towards the German-Jewish 'Mischlinge' 1933-1945," in Leo Baeck Institute Year Book 34?

ETA: D'oh! Beat me to it.

Thanks just the same. This article is good, just looked it through again, best I could with missing pages in Googlebooks.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Your strawmen are exceedingly tedious. I suggest you try wrapping your head around the UN Convention on Genocide and see whether your semantic games can cope with the wording:

I'd also suggest that everyone else simply reposts this article from the UN Convention every time Dogzilla brings up his exceedingly tedious 100% extermination strawman.

The article is also a good rule of thumb for what points should be considered, primary facie, "relevant" in this thread. Far better than Dogzilla's other dumbed down strawman, 6 million + plan + gas chambers, a strawman designed to exclude from consideration scads of relevant acts and sources and to allow Dogzilla to negate without ever ponying up on these points.

 

[Dogzilla]

Apart from the fact that they were still alive at the end of the war.

Your strawmen are exceedingly tedious. I suggest you try wrapping your head around the UN Convention on Genocide and see whether your semantic games can cope with the wording:

Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I'd also suggest that everyone else simply reposts this article from the UN Convention every time Dogzilla brings up his exceedingly tedious 100% extermination strawman.

Or when Nick Terry responds to a post without knowing what he's talking about.

 

[Dogzilla]

All. Wanted. All. 100%. No survivors.

I am not going to wait for Dogzilla and Mr Moore to post their extensively researched comparative review of source material on the mass extermination of Japanese American internees in the US versus that for the genocide of European Jews carried out by the Nazis. I just don't think this review is forthcoming.

But by all means since in both cases there were survivors - albeit in the Holocaust something like one in three European Jews whilst in the case of the Japanese Americans basically everyone - the two policies must be the same . . . ???

Why bother with using evidence to support your conclusions when you can just ask: Where did they go? and Why do you hate the Japanese?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Why bother with using evidence to support your conclusions when you can just ask: Where did they go? and Why do you hate the Japanese?

I have no clue what you're talking about. Since you're the one running away from inconvenient topics and not posting evidence to back your claims, you tell us your reasoning.

 

[A'isha]

So Dogzilla is reduced to this now, is he?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

On the TV show Burn Notice, Mike is played by Jeff Donovan, a Massachusetts native. No attempt is made to hide his accent. However, it is entirely possible for someone to end up with an accent from a place they've never been, usually via a parent. I myself sound remarkably like an American, despite growing up in the [REDACTED].

I agree with this logic, however think about its application to the scenario being discussed. Even if you had never been to a Jewish ghetto in Cracow but you adopted, while growing up, the Jewish/Yiddish/Cracow accent from other residents in, say, a small town in Romania, would that not indicate that the others around you already had the Jewish/Yiddish/Cracow accent? It would suggest the community already had a historical tie to the original Jewish/ Yiddish/ Cracow community.

Estonian is a Uralic Finnish/Hungarian language. German and Russian borrow words and accent modifiers exist reflecting Russian and German immigration from generations ago. Many of the Russian speakers in Estonia have never been to Russia. It's the same logic.

Dogzilla can't give us one example to support his crap theory. Even if he did he would then need to find all the former Polish and German communities elsewhere, to obtain statistical validity that 5 or so million people migrated in the way he suggests. No holocaust denier has lifted a finger to do this as they know it's easily debunkable crap.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

You'd expect families who work in magazine publishing to know about any secret Jewish holocaust communities that might exist? Why is that?

Because I told them "There are idiot holocaust deniers who claim that the Jews were not executed but migrated elsewhere in the eastern block and hid all the evidence for some unkown reason. Have you heard anything about this around here?" After the usual complaints about Romneys and Russians, the answer is "No".

That means I have actually asked. You haven't even done that, yet here you are saying this is your working theory.........

I'd start with the Jewish communities. Do you really need help with this?

Well I don't need any help at all as it isn't my crap theory. It's your crap theory and you won't start looking at evidence yourself as the evidence is against you. Have you looked at US emigration in 1933 to 1939 to see how many Poles and Germans even reached the US? (Of course not! You are a holocaust denier!)