There was a Conspiracy to mislead US citizens into war with Afghanistan and Iraq


The fourth sentence reads: The terrorist organization al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack.


Federal judge Robert G. Doumar, ruled that the Sudanese government was liable for the bombing.
The judge stated "There is substantial evidence in this case presented by the expert testimony that the government of Sudan induced the particular bombing of the Cole by virtue of prior actions of the government of Sudan."

Again, from the article you linked to: On March 14, 2007, a federal judge in the United States, Robert G. Doumar, ruled that the Sudanese government was liable for the bombing.[18]

The ruling was issued in response to a lawsuit filed against the Sudanese government by relatives of the victims, who claim that al-Qaeda could not have carried out the attacks without the support of Sudanese officials.


In other words, Judge Doumar ruled that Al-Qeada did it.

Why should we take you seriously when all you do is tell lies and half-truths?

You are showing us that you don't believe your own claims. You feel that your case is too weak to stand on its own so you need to lie or cut out parts you don't want us to hear.
 
Since you refuse to believe the NATO reports and the pentagon reports I linked for you will you at least believe the President of the US or are you also going to insist he, like the generals in the reports I linked to, does not know what he is talking about and what he says does not effect the war or foreign policy?

“President Obama’s thinking about what he once called “a war of necessity” began to radically change less than a year after he took up residency in the White House….Mr. Obama concluded in his first year that the Bush-era dream of remaking Afghanistan was a fantasy,…. Mr. Obama began to question why Americans were dying to prop up a leader, President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, who was volatile, unreliable and willing to manipulate the ballot box. Faced with an economic crisis at home and a fiscal crisis that Mr. Obama knew would eventually require deep limits on Pentagon spending, he was also shocked, they said, by what the war’s cost would be if the generals’ counterinsurgency plan were left on autopilot — $1 trillion over 10 years. And the more he delved into what it would take to truly change Afghan society, the more he concluded that the task was so overwhelming that it would make little difference whether a large American and NATO force remained for 2 more years, 5 more years or 10 more years.” https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/20/u...pagewanted=all

I'm not relying on "reports" you've provided, I'm relying on my first hand experience on the ground in '03, and the experiences of family members and friends both before I was there and after.

There's a difference between cut and paste knowledge and first hand knowledge.

Your problem is you only have the former, and the only filter you have is your desire to "prove" your CT.
 
If you can't actually figure out a way to prove your own argument, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate said argument.

You seem to be assuming that my argument is the same as the OP's argument.

I treat the pursuit of truth as a collective effort, not a competitive sport in which players loyally (and often blindly) take one side or the other.

My question was serious. How do we go about ascertaining the motives and aims of a secretive military organization?

I'm not relying on "reports" you've provided, I'm relying on my first hand experience on the ground in '03, and the experiences of family members and friends both before I was there and after.

There's a difference between cut and paste knowledge and first hand knowledge.

Your problem is you only have the former, and the only filter you have is your desire to "prove" your CT.

Sorry, anecdotal "I was there" evidence doesn't cut it either.
 
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Oh yea I see like a memo saying that we, (the Bush administration), are going to tell everyone that we believe Iraq is aiding and abetting Al Queda including training camps and etc, so the US must invade before Iraq/Al Queda attacks the US with WMD's even though we have several intelligence reports saying that Saddam's secular government is actually enemies with Al Queda and that their are no WMD's and absolutely no operational ties with Al Queda especially after Saddam called OBL a CIA asset and OBL called Saddam an infidel who used to be a US puppet.

Yet thankfully the majority of people in the US and the world know that the US citizens were lied into war with Iraq. Though there are still the rare fanatics who cannot except the evidence unless Bush were to admit it himself.

Here is your fundamental problem. Every time the US government was wrong you seem to assume they "lied." The two really are totally different things.
 
You seem to be assuming that my argument is the same as the OP's argument.

I treat the pursuit of truth as a collective effort, not a competitive sport in which players loyally (and often blindly) take one side or the other.

My question was serious. How do we go about ascertaining the motives and aims of a secretive military organization?



Sorry, anecdotal "I was there" evidence doesn't cut it either.

I'll take my eyesight over a website anyday of the week.
 
The fourth sentence reads: The terrorist organization al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack.


Again, from the article you linked to: On March 14, 2007, a federal judge in the United States, Robert G. Doumar, ruled that the Sudanese government was liable for the bombing.[18]

The ruling was issued in response to a lawsuit filed against the Sudanese government by relatives of the victims, who claim that al-Qaeda could not have carried out the attacks without the support of Sudanese officials.


In other words, Judge Doumar ruled that Al-Qeada did it.

Why should we take you seriously when all you do is tell lies and half-truths?

You are showing us that you don't believe your own claims. You feel that your case is too weak to stand on its own so you need to lie or cut out parts you don't want us to hear.

I said that according to the US government investigations and the 9/11 commission OBL did NOT plan or order the USS Cole attack.

So your arguing that because Al Qeada was responsible it means OBL was responsible.

Well the courts and the US government does not agree with you. They do not think OBL PLANED or ORDERED the USS Cole attack.

No wonder your so confused you think that every Al Qeada attack was planed and ordered by OBL and you believe that the Taliban had helped carryout the 9/11 attacks. You ARE WRONG!
 
So your arguing that because Al Qeada was responsible it means OBL was responsible.

Duuuuhhhh...
Well the courts and the US government does not agree with you. They do not think OBL PLANED or ORDERED the USS Cole attack.

This is not true and you know it. Judge Dumar ruled in the case you referred to that Al-Qeada was behind the USS Cole attack.

Why do you insist on lying?
 
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I'm not relying on "reports" you've provided, I'm relying on my first hand experience on the ground in '03, and the experiences of family members and friends both before I was there and after.

There's a difference between cut and paste knowledge and first hand knowledge.

Your problem is you only have the former, and the only filter you have is your desire to "prove" your CT.

So based on what you saw NINE years ago you refuse to read or except what the NATO reports, Pentagon reports, Generals reports and the President of the US has said are the CURRENT conditions in Afghanistan.

Will you at least listen to more than 250 soldiers in the field, from the lowest-ranking 19-year-old private to division commanders and staff members at every echelon. http://armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030

I spent last year in Afghanistan, visiting and talking with U.S. troops and their Afghan partners. My duties with the Army’s Rapid Equipping Force took me into every significant area where our soldiers engage the enemy. Over the course of 12 months, I covered more than 9,000 miles and talked, traveled and patrolled with troops in Kandahar, Kunar, Ghazni, Khost, Paktika, Kunduz, Balkh, Nangarhar and other provinces.

What I saw bore no resemblance to rosy official statements by U.S. military leaders about conditions on the ground.

Entering this deployment, I was sincerely hoping to learn that the claims were true: that conditions in Afghanistan were improving, that the local government and military were progressing toward self-sufficiency. I did not need to witness dramatic improvements to be reassured, but merely hoped to see evidence of positive trends, to see companies or battalions produce even minimal but sustainable progress.

Instead, I witnessed the absence of success on virtually every level.

As a representative for the Rapid Equipping Force, I set out to talk to our troops about their needs and their circumstances. Along the way, I conducted mounted and dismounted combat patrols, spending time with conventional and Special Forces troops. I interviewed or had conversations with more than 250 soldiers in the field, from the lowest-ranking 19-year-old private to division commanders and staff members at every echelon. I spoke at length with Afghan security officials, Afghan civilians and a few village elders.

I saw the incredible difficulties any military force would have to pacify even a single area of any of those provinces; I heard many stories of how insurgents controlled virtually every piece of land beyond eyeshot of a U.S. or International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) base.

I’m hardly the only one who has noted the discrepancy between official statements and the truth on the ground.

A January 2011 report by the Afghan NGO Security Office noted that public statements made by U.S. and ISAF leaders at the end of 2010 were “sharply divergent from IMF, [international military forces, NGO-speak for ISAF] ‘strategic communication’ messages suggesting improvements. We encourage [nongovernment organization personnel] to recognize that no matter how authoritative the source of any such claim, messages of the nature are solely intended to influence American and European public opinion ahead of the withdrawal, and are not intended to offer an accurate portrayal of the situation for those who live and work here.”

The following month, Anthony Cordesman, on behalf of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote that ISAF and the U.S. leadership failed to report accurately on the reality of the situation in Afghanistan.

“Since June 2010, the unclassified reporting the U.S. does provide has steadily shrunk in content, effectively ‘spinning’ the road to victory by eliminating content that illustrates the full scale of the challenges ahead,” Cordesman wrote. “They also, however, were driven by political decisions to ignore or understate Taliban and insurgent gains from 2002 to 2009, to ignore the problems caused by weak and corrupt Afghan governance, to understate the risks posed by sanctuaries in Pakistan, and to ‘spin’ the value of tactical ISAF victories while ignoring the steady growth of Taliban influence and control.

http://armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030
 
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Here is your fundamental problem. Every time the US government was wrong you seem to assume they "lied." The two really are totally different things.

Oh, give him slack on this one. It is hard to tell the difference on this one most of the time. However, it is the motives behind the "lies" that are often misconstrued.
 
I said that according to the US government investigations and the 9/11 commission OBL did NOT plan or order the USS Cole attack.

So your arguing that because Al Qeada was responsible it means OBL was responsible.


:jaw-dropp

Stundie?

OBL was Al Qeada. He was the HEAD of Al Qeada. He's responsible for EVERYTHING they do!!!!
 
Here is your fundamental problem. Every time the US government was wrong you seem to assume they "lied." The two really are totally different things.

I think you have failed to grasp that declassified documents have proven that the Bush administration knew, (because they were told), that there were no Iraq/Al Qeada connection and no WMD’s yet they continued to imply both were possible to justify the invasion of Iraq. They argued that lack of evidence was not evidence that there were no Iraq/Al Qeada connection or WMD’s

If you to the following link you can read Bush administration quotes that are dated so you can see, (further down the thread), that before they made those statements they had been informed by US intelligence agencies that the claims Bush and his officials were making were knowingly false. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139105

For example a recently declassified document by the National Security Archive reveals that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) delivered a briefing to the Bush administration which directly contradicts former Vice President Dick Cheney’s claim that 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta visited an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague.

The document dated Dec. 1, 2001 and delivered to the White House on the 8th, claims that Atta “did not travel to the Czech Republic on 31 May 2000,” and adds that “the individual who attempted to enter the Czech Republic on 31 May 2000… was not the Atta who attacked the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001.” http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/cheneyiraq911memo.pdf

Removed breach of Rule 4.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL
 
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:jaw-dropp

Stundie?

OBL was Al Qeada. He was the HEAD of Al Qeada. He's responsible for EVERYTHING they do!!!!

But the US did/does not have evidence that he Planed or Ordered the USS Cole attack.

We are talking about a criminal organization.

So if a guy is the Mafia Godfather in Italy and he did NOT order the hit, (I think the Mafia call it sanction), or PLAN the hit that took place in another country he will still be arrested for the murder of someone whom was killed by another Mafia member who was not working under the orders of the Godfather?

P.S. There are three mafia guys and two of the three mafia guys try to kill one mafia guy and the one mafia guy survives so all three are charged with attempted murder because all three are in the mafia?

Or better yet the one they tried to kill is the Godfather so he is charged for the attempted murder of himself because "He's responsible for EVERYTHING they do!!!!"?
 
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Or better yet the one they tried to kill is the Godfather so he is charged for the attempted murder of himself because "He's responsible for EVERYTHING they do!!!!"?

Bad analogy. OBL did declare war on the US in 1998 and issue the order. Whether he approved (which he did) the operation against the Cole is moot. He issued a general order for his "troops" (AQ) to attack US targets and citizens. If someone had tried to kill him among their ranks, then that would have been a power play not covered by the general order.
 
Bad analogy. OBL did declare war on the US in 1998 and issue the order. Whether he approved (which he did) the operation against the Cole is moot. He issued a general order for his "troops" (AQ) to attack US targets and citizens. If someone had tried to kill him among their ranks, then that would have been a power play not covered by the general order.

The US found evidence linking the attack to Al Qeada but not that it was planed or ordered by OBL.

OBL was forced, by the Taliban after they arrested him, to publicly call of any attacks while he was in Afghanistan and said that any orders for any thing had to be approved by the Taliban leader mullah Omar.
 
The US found evidence linking the attack to Al Qeada but not that it was planed or ordered by OBL.

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. - OBL February 23, 1998 (his own words)

You really do need to do better research. My 12 year old gets this one.
 
I do believe that the Gulf of Tonkin incident which was false as now admitted by the US government was used to gain the peoples support for war in Vietnam.
Although almost no one actually knew about it back then. Great plan, do a "false flag" before the worlds MSM was even in sync.

:rolleyes:
 
I think you have failed to grasp that declassified documents have proven that the Bush administration knew, (because they were told), that there were no Iraq/Al Qeada connection and no WMD’s yet they continued to imply both were possible to justify the invasion of Iraq. They argued that lack of evidence was not evidence that there were no Iraq/Al Qeada connection or WMD’s

Having someone telling you something while others say something else does not mean you "know" anything. All you had was a bunch of people with different guesses.

For example a recently declassified document by the National Security Archive reveals that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) delivered a briefing to the Bush administration which directly contradicts former Vice President Dick Cheney’s claim that 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta visited an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague.
Who cares? No one but an idiot thought Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
 
There definitely seems to be a difference in handling and execution of same situation/mission in Pakistan compared to Afghanistan.

You might not have noticed but the covert attack worked better than the all out war did. So apparently your evidence of a conspiracy is President Obama's plan was more effective than President Bush's plan?

For example a recently declassified document by the National Security Archive reveals that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) delivered a briefing to the Bush administration which directly contradicts former Vice President Dick Cheney’s claim that 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta visited an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague.
Who cares? No one but an idiot thought Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.[/QUOTE]

"Recently declassified?!" That's been public knowledge for nearly a decade. Are you just now realizing it?
 
The US found evidence linking the attack to Al Qeada

So Al-Qeada was behind the Cole, African embassy and 9/11 attacks and the Al-Qeada leadership was in Afghanistan.

By your own admission, there were no lies nor any conspiracy to mislead the US into war in Afghanistan.
 

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