General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
And if Team Holocaust weren't warmongering Holocaust Huggers it would be better, safer world.
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I am not part of Team Holocaust obviously, as it doesn't exist, but am about as far as you can get from being a warmonger.

Remembering atrocities like the holocaust, and telling the next generation about them, will hopefully lead to a safer world bt making people less likely to start bloody stupid wars.
 
LemmyCaution said:
I don't know, as I don't recall any historian (see upthread, sigh) arguing it this way - although the Nazis wanted to be rid of the Jews and if it took killing them, which they decided it would, they were willing to try to. As someone said today, having a goal and realizing it are different matters. < snip >
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Doing a little cleanup. I was reading an essay by a very fine historian of the Holocaust, Dieter Pohl, this weekend, and came across some relevant remarks, which comport well with what the non-deniers said in reply to Dogzilla on whether the Nazis had wanted to kill all the Jews of Europe.

Pohl wrote that
the treatment of Jews was primarily dominated by racism; economic expectations were only of secondary importance. From the point of view of the perpetrators, no Jewish prisoners [in the concentration and other camps] were supposed to survive the war. . . . Large numbers of Jewish survivors spent the last months of the war in concentration camps, the only 'legal' way left for them to live under German rule. . . . From the perspective of the Nazi leadership, Jews were initially to be forced to emigrate (until 1939/41), before policy changed to deportation and ghettoization (1939-1942). From autumn 1941 on, Jews were generally meant to be murdered. But the latter policy was already modified in early 1942, when the value of the Jewish workforce was reconsidered, and a minority of Jews were kept alive. . . . In spring and summer 1942, a dual system of exploitation and murder was established in [Auschwitz and Majdanek]. . . . Not all the victims in the camps were murdered immediately upon their arrival, but all Jewish prisoners were destined for extermination. It was only due to their liberation by the Allies that a minority of Jewish prisoners survived the war.
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in Caplan & Wachsmann, Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany: The New Histories, pp 161-163

Pohl's words suggest a "thought experiment" - what if the Germans had won the war? - which has, I think, a clear answer: as many Jews as the Nazis could kill would have died - along with millions of Slavs in conquered territories. But his narrative, which comes from his working in the sources, not from his ideology or preconceptions, recognizes phases, contingency (such as the war not proceeding as the Nazis planned and turning into a war of attrition with vast labor requirements), obstacles and logistical complications, and, to be clear, reality.
 
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Multivac said:
I am not part of Team Holocaust obviously, as it doesn't exist, but am about as far as you can get from being a warmonger.
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Same here. Have been in opposition to many of the wars my country has been involved in and caused, from Vietnam to Iraq and Afghanistan. I always seem to find myself in opposition to these things, sigh. Mr Moore can fictionalize whatever he pleases about my team membership and warmongering - he has no basis for what he claims and therefore his noise about this simply exposes his methods.
 
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Warmongering? Yes well, try and stay on topic and avoid obtruding your own political views and irrelevant commentary into Historical discussion, Clayton Moore.

:D

Sound advice that was issued elsewhere upon the Internet to the "railroaded" little grey rabbit but equally applicable to Mr. Moore and his somewhat under developed ideas.
 
Multivac said:
I am not part of Team Holocaust obviously, as it doesn't exist, but am about as far as you can get from being a warmonger.

Remembering atrocities like the holocaust, and telling the next generation about them, will hopefully lead to a safer world bt making people less likely to start bloody stupid wars.
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Yet the big dogs of Team Holocaust, the Zionist neocons, are hip deep in conflicts and terrorism and assassinations all over the planet Earth.
 
Sorry Clayon Moore, this is History not your species of Rainbow Nazism. go and dump your views into a 9.11 thread if you please.

Oh I see...shhhhh, "it's all connected."
 
More cleanup: I wrote that I recalled the American Jewish Yearbook for 1941-1942 estimating the Jewish population of Europe as close to 10 million. It did, but that figure was for the 'thirties. For mid-1941, the Year Book states, “On the date of the invasion [of the USSR], June 22, 1941 . . . the Jewish population on the continent of Europe [is] estimated at well over 9,000,000,” p 663, right in the range of other estimates I referred to and, as I had said, lower than Heydrich's estimate in the Wannsee Protocol.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Yet the big dogs of Team Holocaust, the Zionist neocons, are hip deep in conflicts and terrorism and assassinations all over the planet Earth.
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Really? Raul Hilberg was, for example? Peter Longerich is? Ian Kershaw? Christopher Browning?

You make irresponsible, wild, and unsupportable charges as though it doesn't matter what you say - just make it up and fling it against the wall. It is, frankly, appalling for you to vilify people in this way.
 
Look it up. It's common knowledge.
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For your attention:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369


The site contains 10 copies of published 6 Million figures before the year 1945. The first publication is from the year 1900. Forget about the text of the page.

I also recommend to have a look at the following (Jewish) page:

http://www.effedieffe.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9185&Itemid=152


Quote:

The SS was particularly enthusiastic in its support for Zionism. An internal June 1934 SS position paper urged active and wide-ranging support for Zionism by the government and the Party as the best way to encourage emigration of Germany’s Jews to Palestine. This would require increased Jewish self-awareness. Jewish schools, Jewish sports leagues, Jewish cultural organizations — in short, everything that would encourage this new consciousness and self-awareness – should be promoted, the paper recommended.8

SS officer Leopold von Mildenstein and Zionist Federation official Kurt Tuchler toured Palestine together for six months to assess Zionist development there. Based on his firsthand observations, von Mildenstein wrote a series of twelve illustrated articles for the important Berlin daily Der Angriff that appeared in late 1934 under the heading “A Nazi Travels to Palestine.” The series expressed great admiration for the pioneering spirit and achievements of the Jewish settlers. Zionist self-development, von Mildenstein wrote, had produced a new kind of Jew. He praised Zionism as a great benefit for both the Jewish people and the entire world. A Jewish homeland in Palestine, he wrote in his concluding article, “pointed the way to curing a centuries-long wound on the body of the world: the Jewish question.” Der Angriff issued a special medal, with a Swastika on one side and a Star of David on the other, to commemorate the joint SS-Zionist visit. A few months after the articles appeared, von Mildenstein was promoted to head the Jewish affairs department of the SS security service in order to support Zionist migration and development more effectively.

The official SS newspaper, Das Schwarze Korps, proclaimed its support for Zionism in a May 1935 front-page editorial: “The time may not be too far off when Palestine will again be able to receive its sons who have been lost to it for more than a thousand years. Our good wishes, together with official goodwill, go with them.”
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Yet the big dogs of Team Holocaust, the Zionist neocons, are hip deep in conflicts and terrorism and assassinations all over the planet Earth.
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And yet, there are fewer conflicts at present than 100 years ago.

At present

1900 to 1919

Wars or large scale military conflicts being defined as causing 1,000+ casualties/year.

Looking at this, why are you complaining again?
 
MaxMurx said:
For your attention:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369


The site contains 10 copies of published 6 Million figures before the year 1945. The first publication is from the year 1900.#

I also recommend to have a look at the following (Jewish) page:
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Have you looked for pre-Holocaust mentions of the number 5.1 million? Which is the number of Jewish victims of the Nazis according to Hilberg. Or, for a control, have you compared the number of references to 6 million to every other possible number of Jews, say in Russia, as one of your articles mentions, Russia not however being the issue here?
 
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Matthew Ellard said:
You seem confused Dogzilla. If a Jewish community is removed, from say Podgórze in Cracow in Poland, we should anticipate a legacy of the pre-war accent from that previously existing community, in the new location you fantasize they moved to. We should also anticipate other evidence like old passports, photos, books, furniture being relocated. In fact there are many forms of evidence we need to look at.

Did you "look" into any evidence before you made your preposterous claim? Please show us your work.
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On the TV show Burn Notice, Mike is played by Jeff Donovan, a Massachusetts native. No attempt is made to hide his accent. However, it is entirely possible for someone to end up with an accent from a place they've never been, usually via a parent. I myself sound remarkably like an American, despite growing up in the [REDACTED].
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Look it up. It's common knowledge.
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Yet no one here except you, including other deniers, has heard about it, and Team Holocaust would do their best to suppress the information.

More self-debunking.

Clayton Moore said:
The hate is on the Holocaust hugger side. Protecting your valuable Holocaust no matter what lies have to be abetted.
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Which is why we've specifically pointed out that the Soviet numbers were lies or at best incorrect, right, despite the fact that it would give more impact to the official story to keep using the incorrect numbers?

If we're lying, why are you not backing up your claim? Why does your own source say you were wrong about the exemptions? Where is your evidence of Red sympathies among the Jews?

Clayton Moore said:
And if Team Holocaust weren't warmongering Holocaust Huggers it would be better, safer world.
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Just so I'm clear, are you saying everyone in the world except for deniers is a war-monger? Because that seems unlikely. It's also an ad hominem, unproven, and irrelevant.


Clayton Moore said:
Yet the big dogs of Team Holocaust, the Zionist neocons, are hip deep in conflicts and terrorism and assassinations all over the planet Earth.
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So now Team Holocaust comprises only "the big dogs"? Quit moving the goalposts.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Have you figured out how to resolve the 2000 gassings an hour with 15 cremations an hour bottle neck? How about you Nick Terry have you figured it out?
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Why did Hitler have to be the one to authorise exemptions for Jews and Mischlings?
 
Nessie said:
Noted, you cannot answer about exemptions as that blows a huge hole in your beliefs and you do not know what to do.

I know that there are hundreds of thousand bodies buried at the AR camps because Eva Braun and Toto found them whilst out for a walk one day. It is amazing how many dog walkers find bodies isn't it. I will treat your questions now with the contempt you treat mine.
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No, as I have said, I haven't read the book. I don't know if it blows a huge hole in my beliefs. But you're correct that I don't know how to react to it because I don't know what it says. I'd ask you for a summary but given your track record for misunderstanding what I and other people say, I'm not sure if I trust your accuracy.

Plus, you continue to demand that I offer an opinion on a subject which I have repeatedly stated I know nothing about. I assume that you're not simply trying to provoke me with a demand that you consciously know is unreasonable. Therefore, it's obvious to me and to everybody following this that, in your mind, a person does not need to be informed about a subject before discussing the subject or before before offering an opinion on the subject. I'm sorry but I don't share your conviction that an uninformed opinion is just as valuable as an informed opinion. But that's just me.

But your flippant remark about Eva Braun and Toto caused me to have a "No duh. Why didn't I think of that earlier?" moment. Cadaver dogs. I don't know how they do with bodies in a wax fat transformation state but Kola said they made his drill bits really smelly. The surface of the camps being littered with body parts might confuse the dogs somewhat but there should be a workaround for that. Bring a couple of cadaver dogs out the AR camps and see what they can find.
 
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