General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dogzilla]

Say, Dogzilla, what's your criteria for relevance again? Do you actually have one that could be written down, on paper? Or is it something you feel in your gut?

My criteria for relevance of what?

 

[Dogzilla]

According to Heydrich's protocol, there were 11 million Jews in Europe. This is a somewhat higher number than the usual estimate of 9.5 million in the 1930s. Leaving aside definitional and methodological issues in the counts, it is clear that 9 plus million Jews lived in Europe on the eve of the Holocaust. Holocaust historians usually say about 9 million, the low side of these estimates.

"...generations of census, official, economic and financial, religious, press, and other records and a vast history of Jewish life in Europe, with all that entails - neighborhoods, businesses, religious institutions, personal biographies, relations with non-Jews, literature, cultural and scientific achievements, etc." and you go with what the Nazis said? How many Jews were there in Europe in January 1942 according to the Jews?

Drilling down a bit, the German census of June 1933 counted 505,000 Jews living in the Reich, the number somewhat reduced since the Nazi seizure of power. By 1939 only 214,000 Jews remained in the Reich. We could productively discuss what became of these people. Or rather, someone other than you could . . .

Yeah, I would keep bringing up the Haavara Agreement which really complicates the "Kill 'em all" policy. We'd best leave that one off the table.

And I've asked for discussion of five occupied cities, in order to get a bottoms up view of what was happening to Jews during the war years. (This is the discussion you've avoided with such gems as . . . . http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8417955&postcount=3672 . . . ):

We could discuss these case studies - or you could continue to ask questions you know the answers to and pretend there's nothing to discuss. Really, 840,000 people - some of whom were victims of the Holocaust or not, perhaps part of the overall death toll - and you ask what there is to discuss! If you don't want to discuss the Holocaust, and its elements, why in the heck are you even here?

I'm here to discuss the points of contention. You've been unable to tie these case studies to that.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

And how he can tell that they're postwar emigrants, instead of prewar emigrants. The time spanning the Nazis being merely one political party in Wiemar Germany to the height of the Nazi mass-murder of Jews was only a decade, after all.

I agree. In addition, my aim was to see if Dogzilla would even make an attempt at giving an example, as he knows one of us will research his proposed Jewish community's history.

Clayton and Dogzilla keep dipping their toes into real history and pulling them back out when the cold hard facts don't support their holocaust denial cult propaganda.

 

[A'isha]

Yeah, I would keep bringing up the Haavara Agreement which really complicates the "Kill 'em all" policy.

No it doesn't.

 

[Dogzilla]

This Jewish accents one, reminds me of the checking the telephone directory for Jewish surnames one...

Though "no Jews no Holocaust" by Dogzilla should be in the Stundie finals and I do hope that those of you reading along or participating in this discussion will send it spinning to the bottom of the stupid land by voting for it when the time comes. Thus joining it's subnormal brother in thought the "winning" Stundie, by FP. Berg. This notoriously dense idea:

"Jews could survive in a gas chamber by "simply" holding their breath for half an hour."

What's a "Jewish" accent?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I see..... Can you name the specific post war Jewish community that you have looked at that gave you this impression? I mean....you have looked haven't you? Please give up your best example so we may have a look ourselves.

Wouldn't that be more anthropology, rather than history? Or etymology?

Well.... any example Dogzilla offers would need to be assessed on various sources of information for a well rounded approach.

Obviously the local census and local history, pre-war and post war, of the nominated Jewish community would be the starting point. Comparison to the timing of the elimination of Jews in German controlled territories would also be required. Additional consideration as to how they physically got there would be required. We can then move onto physical evidence such as old passports, furniture, documents etc. Claims for post war compensation could also be considered ( as Clayton and Dogzilla believe the holocaust is a money making scheme... there should be claims). We can finish up on the nominated Jewish community's own cultural memories.

Let us see if Dogzilla has done any of the above in his claim or if he is just repeating cult propaganda, as he is just another junior holocaust denier.

 

[LemmyCaution]

"...generations of census, official, economic and financial, religious, press, and other records and a vast history of Jewish life in Europe, with all that entails - neighborhoods, businesses, religious institutions, personal biographies, relations with non-Jews, literature, cultural and scientific achievements, etc." and you go with what the Nazis said? How many Jews were there in Europe in January 1942 according to the Jews?

No, I compared the Nazi estimates, which are in fact relevant, to other estimates, which include those of historians but also Jewish groups. IIRC The American Jewish Yearbook had the number in 1941-1942 at close to 10 million. I will have to check tomorrow.

Yeah, I would keep bringing up the Haavara Agreement which really complicates the "Kill 'em all" policy. We'd best leave that one off the table.

Are you constitutionally incapable of making and supporting a point, or do you simply not want to get pinned down knowing that your points blow up in your face, like your fallacious claims regarding the Jaeger report?

I'm here to discuss the points of contention. You've been unable to tie these case studies to that.

I see, so that means that there is no contention about the nature of Colonel Jaeger's squad's activities in Lithuanian, where you now agree they murdered about 130,000 Jews specifically to eliminate the Jewish population of Lithuania and render the area free of Jews. And that there is no contention that nearly 300,000 Jews were deported from Warsaw in summer and fall 1942 to the gas chambers of Treblinka and that about 10,000 Jews were slaughtered in the ghetto during the Aktion. That successive and phased murder actions killed, in gas vans at Chelmno and gas chambers at Aushwitz, by war's end most Jews of Lodz who didn't starve or succumb to disease and privation or were not part of the small remnant (IIRC about 20,000) selected for labor. And so on.

Is that what you mean? No points of contention to discuss regarding any of this?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

What's a "Jewish" accent?

You seem confused Dogzilla. If a Jewish community is removed, from say Podgórze in Cracow in Poland, we should anticipate a legacy of the pre-war accent from that previously existing community, in the new location you fantasize they moved to. We should also anticipate other evidence like old passports, photos, books, furniture being relocated. In fact there are many forms of evidence we need to look at.

Did you "look" into any evidence before you made your preposterous claim? Please show us your work.

 

[Dogzilla]

Well.... any example Dogzilla offers would need to be assessed on various sources of information for a well rounded approach.

Obviously the local census and local history, pre-war and post war, of the nominated Jewish community would be the starting point. Comparison to the timing of the elimination of Jews in German controlled territories would also be required. Additional consideration as to how they physically got there would be required. We can then move onto physical evidence such as old passports, furniture, documents etc. Claims for post war compensation could also be considered ( as Clayton and Dogzilla believe the holocaust is a money making scheme... there should be claims). We can finish up on the nominated Jewish community's own cultural memories.

Let us see if Dogzilla has done any of the above in his claim or if he is just repeating cult propaganda, as he is just another junior holocaust denier.

So what you're saying is that you'll erect insurmountable obstacles to anybody attempting to locate the missing Jews and when they're found, you'll just move the goalposts and demand that they provide impossible proof of origin and nationality. These people lost everything and you're going to demand to see an old passport that they left behind when the fled the Nazis? You'll say they're not real Jews because they haven't demanded any compensation? Why don't you visit the USHMM and ask one of the survivors they have in the lobby to show you her faded crumpled up German passport--the one with the swastika and the big letter "J" stamped on it--and start grilling her about when she left why she left does she know any other survivors prove they were survivors you don't look too persecuted to me......

 

[Dogzilla]

You seem confused Dogzilla. If a Jewish community is removed, from say Podgórze in Cracow in Poland, we should anticipate a legacy of the pre-war accent from that previously existing community, in the new location you fantasize they moved to. We should also anticipate other evidence like old passports, photos, books, furniture being relocated. In fact there are many forms of evidence we need to look at.

Did you "look" into any evidence before you made your preposterous claim? Please show us your work.

All the survivors I have met had German accents or an eastern European accent that was probably Polish although I don't know. I know the German accents because the Germans I know about the same age have the same accent. I've never heard somebody describe an accent as a "Jewish" accent. Have you ever met anybody from Europe? Or anybody who is Jewish?

And you'll demand to see furniture or books from the old country? Because the Nazis moved all the Jews' belongings into storage when they were deported so they could be retrieved later and brought to the new country? Or when Jews fled their homes to live in the forests there's no way they were going to leave the highboy and the good china behind?

What part of 'holocaust' don't you understand?

 

[Tomtomkent]

And again, time to ask you to document the "Communist affiliations" of the little guy to my left...

Don't you mean the alleged notorious criminal?

 

[TSR]

Don't you mean the alleged notorious criminal?

Do try to keep up -- that was *last week's* lame excuse from cm as to why the Jews deserved the Holocaust (which, it should be noted, didn't happen).

 

[Clayton Moore]

Hi Clayton! I see you are still having problems with basic concepts as you are a junior holocaust denier. Let us help you.....

Firstly, you failed to read the Wikipedia article, you quoted, in full and left out this quote.. "90% of the 214,000 Jews still left in Germany in 1939 were killed during the war" and "Additionally, approximately 15,000 German Jews survived the concentration camps or survived by going into hiding" Was that just an error, as you are incompetent, or a lie on purpose?

Secondly, you don't seem to understand that Treblinka, Auschwitz and the other camps being discussed were in Poland and other countries. Do you got a map of Europe that you can look at? This will help reduce your ongoing confusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ews_in_Germany_from_1945_to_the_reunification

Thirdly, you never back up your claims or follow through your arguments when questioned. Is this your own technique or a general holocaust deniers technique you use?

Yeah. Just more fabrication from another Holocaust hugger.

160,000 Jewish soldiers leave 54,000 Jewish men, women and children in all of Germany. Kill off 90% leaves 5,400 Jewish men, women and children in all of Germany after the war.

 

[Nessie]

Nick doesn't seem to hold that book in very high regard. I thought the premise was intriguing but I haven't read it. I'm not going to comment on something I haven't read. I'm not going to assume that a one sentence summary of an idea that might be in the book is an accurate summary and respond to that. I'm not going to avoid answering a question by demanding ridiculous levels of proof that cannot be met nor am I going to simply disagree with whatever you're saying.

That said, why do I think Hitler had to authorize exemptions? Probably because Hitler's Zionist overlords told him that if he didn't, they would kill Eva Braun and her little dog, Toto. That's about as serious an answer you're going to get out of me.

Your turn: how is any of this evidence that there were hundreds of thousands of bodies buried at the AR camps?

Noted, you cannot answer about exemptions as that blows a huge hole in your beliefs and you do not know what to do.

I know that there are hundreds of thousand bodies buried at the AR camps because Eva Braun and Toto found them whilst out for a walk one day. It is amazing how many dog walkers find bodies isn't it. I will treat your questions now with the contempt you treat mine.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

So what you're saying is that you'll erect insurmountable obstacles to anybody attempting to locate the missing Jews.......

No Dogzilla. I am showing that
1) You haven't looked at all as you are simply repeating propaganda without checking.

2) You never put your mind to a basic test as you are simply repeating propaganda without thinking.

3) You are a simply a junior holocaust denier spreading propaganda that you haven't checked and didn't think about.

Is that clear to you now? Do you want Clayton to explain to complex bits to you?

These people lost everything

How would you know this without checking your own crap theory once? Are you making up crap again to hide your laziness and stupidity?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

All the survivors I have met had German accents or an eastern European accent that was probably Polish although I don't know.

If you don't know what a Polish accent sounds like then how in hell did you reach your stupid conclusion that there were secret Polish Jewish enclaves "somewhere" in eastern Europe? That is pretty stupid even for a junior holocaust denier.

Have you ever met anybody from Europe? Or anybody who is Jewish?

I have just come back from Estonia, Hungary, Croatia etc after talking to families who work in the magazine publishing industry. Now, if they don't know of any secret Jewish holocaust communities why do you claim they exist based on holocaust denier propaganda? Will you now name one "community" or retract your extremely stupid claim?

What part of 'holocaust' don't you understand?

The holocaust propaganda lies that deniers like you spread without checking. I assume you do this to get attention.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Noted, you cannot answer about exemptions as that blows a huge hole in your beliefs and you do not know what to do.

I know that there are hundreds of thousand bodies buried at the AR camps because Eva Braun and Toto found them whilst out for a walk one day. It is amazing how many dog walkers find bodies isn't it. I will treat your questions now with the contempt you treat mine.

Have you figured out how to resolve the 2000 gassings an hour with 15 cremations an hour bottle neck? How about you Nick Terry have you figured it out?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Yeah. Just more fabrication from another Holocaust hugger.

No Clayton. I simply looked at the full citation you linked. You didn't. [SNIP] Get Dogzilla to explain this to you. He's used to it.

"90% of the 214,000 Jews still left in Germany in 1939 were killed during the war" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ews_in_Germany_from_1945_to_the_reunification

160,000 Jewish soldiers leave 54,000 Jewish men, women and children in all of Germany. Kill off 90% leaves 5,400 Jewish men, women and children in all of Germany after the war.

This is just "Gold". You are claiming the 160,000 Jewish men, women, children, pensioners and brand new babies all joined the German armed forces in 1939.

I take it that you have not actually read Bryan Rigg's book? If you had you would have read on page one that Rigg was talking about mixed Jews in the armed forces. [SNIP]

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comments

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Have you figured out how to resolve the 2000 gassings an hour with 15 cremations an hour bottle neck? How about you Nick Terry have you figured it out?

Hi Clayton. Tsk tsk tsk. This was explained to you only two days ago. Did you forget this quote on purpose, (for propaganda purposes), or are you having acute memory problems?

Before Operation Reinhard, over half a million Jews had been killed by the Einsatzgruppen, mobile extermination units, in territories conquered by the German army. It became evident, however, that they could not handle the millions of Jews that they had concentrated in the ghettos of occupied countries. So Treblinka, along with the other Operation Reinhard camps, were especially designed for the rapid elimination of the Jews in ghettos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp

 

[LemmyCaution]

This is just "Gold". You are claiming the 160,000 Jewish men, women, children, pensioners and brand new babies all joined the German armed forces in 1939.

That seems to be the only reasonable reading of Mr Moore's post. Leaving aside the problem with Rigg's estimate - again, the number of "Jews" (ahem, Mischlinge) he has in the armed forces is larger than the number of Mischlinge in greater Germany.

I take it that you have not actually read Bryan Rigg's book? If you had you would have read on page one that Rigg was talking about mixed Jews in the armed forces. [SNIP]

Apparently clicking on the link to an article by Rigg and reading that short piece was too much for him: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8406327&postcount=3286.

Mr Moore would have had to have made it to the second page of the article to understand which category of Germans Rigg was discussing - not Jews but half-Jews and quarter Jews. In the article, Rigg estimates that 150,000 half and quarter Jews served in the armed forces, against a census, as noted upthread, showing about 115,000 half and quarter Jews in all of the greater Reich in 1939. Rigg is explicit that he is referring to half and quarter Jews in his article, so I don't know where he went wrong (in the article, Rigg footnotes his book, which I haven't read) - Nick Terry noted that Rigg's work is thought sensationalistic.

I am 100% confident that Mr Moore didn't read Rigg's book, didn't read Rigg's article, and doesn't understand the categories and the distinctions which the Nazis made among them and how Rigg discussed these matters.