General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[TSR]

Team Holocaust goes with the lies and the liars as it suits their agenda.

Who is this Team Holocaust you keep yammering about? Because from your characterization above, you would seem to be a charter member, mr. "nothing but lies".

They attempted to use the 6 million lost lie TWICE before WW2.

Nope.

Go ahead, demonstrate your inability to read for comprehension and almost complete ignorance of history by trying to support your lie.

Auschwitz 4 million: Aside: We never believed that number but the Holocaust impressionable needed to be duped to solidify their imprinting.

... by a demonstrably anti-semitic regime.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling

Numbers of people considered Mischlinge

According to the 1939 Reich census, there were about 72,000 Mischlinge of the 1st degree, some 39,000 of the 2nd degree, and probably tens of thousands more of higher degrees, which, however, were not recorded.[18]

According to historian and Israeli Army and U.S. Marine Corps veteran Bryan Mark Rigg, up to 160,000 one-quarter, one-half, and even full Jewish men served in the German armed forces during World War II, including several generals and at least one field marshal, Erhard Milch.[19]

Didn't I read that there were only about 200,000 Jewish people left in Germany?

 

[TSR]

Didn't I read that there were only about 200,000 Jewish people left in Germany?

Nunno. Did you? And if so, where?

 

[Cyrix686]

Why can't we have proper History related discussion with this pair instead of the usual well lets just say it's the opposite word to, "illumination."

I'm thinking here about things like answers to questions such as:

What were the main ways and why did the amount of Jews in Germany and the Reich continue to fall between 1933 and 1939?

OR

To what extent was the National Socialist administration between 1933 and 1945 Anti-Semitic?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nunno. Did you? And if so, where?

Maybe in my post #3975, the estimate taken from the USHMM website. No citation; the figure is for "Germany proper," the old Reich.

According to the Reich racial census of 15 May 1939 there were in Germany, the Sudetenland, the Saar, and Austria the following, in their proper categories:

Mischlinge I - 72,738
Mischlinge II - 42,811
Racial Jews - 330,892
(from John A.S. Grenville, in Berenbaum & Peck, eds., The Holocaust and History: The Known, the Unknown, the Disputed and the Reexamined, p 320)

(Rigg's estimate of 160,000 - I think his article said 150,000 - Mischlinge in the Wehrmacht is thus highly problematic, as it is higher than the total number of Mischlinge of the first and second degrees by 44,000 - or 34,000!)

The period 1933 to 1939 saw Jewish population in Germany drop, due to Nazi racial policies including discriminatory laws, forced Aryanization and pauperization of the Jewish community, and the "encouragement" of emigration. The same policies introduced in 1938-1939 in Austria and the Protectorate had the same results there. One thing is certain: Dogzilla's best sorting of the puzzle is dreadfully wrong. Which was the point of this discussion, wasn't it?

The Mischlinge were non-Aryans but as Hilberg wrote, Mischlinge "were neither Jews nor Germans."

At Wannsee it was agreed that, with certain exceptions, Mischlinge of the first degree would be treated as Jews for purposes of the Final Solution and Mischlinge of the second degree as Germans. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8407174&postcount=3303

 

[TSR]

Why can't we have proper History related discussion with this pair instead of the usual well lets just say it's the opposite word to, "illumination."

Because they are, both of them, both unwilling and incapable of such a discussion, not to mention it being off topic for this thread, which is about denial, not proper history (save that it be contrasted with denial).

 

[Dogzilla]

The Jaeger report.

Self-serving? Of course, sometimes, and that's why witnesses are examined and their testimony is weighed with other evidence like documents and with other testimony.

You are aware of what was the only evidence which the prosecution used against these defendants and their cohorts, aren’t you?

Of course not. What trial are you talking about and where are the court documents?

But the sort of testimony which I quoted, without accepting it on face value, is, in fact, useful. It isn't perfect, and I never said it was. It is indicative - and in the Einsatzgruppen trial the inability of these defendants to sustain the argument made by Mr Moore, which the defendants wished to make, is indicative of the problems with that argument. In the case of these two men, they were unable, under questioning, to construct a defense of their actions as directed at dealing with a Communist threat as opposed to carrying out a program of murder of Jews. So the court found. And so the documents you won’t discuss prove as well.

Yeah...uh. We'll need to see the transcripts of the trial and the verdict to see what you're talking about. This idea that the men were convicted because the wholesale slaughter of Commies would be a defense but since it was Jews, it's a crime. That sounds like your spin on it.

But what's it going to do to prove gas plan six? You continue to run away from this.

 

[Dogzilla]

Desperate misrepresentation duly noted. I was, as I am sure you know perfectly well, referencing the six million you are so certain didn't die in the camps; where is the evidence for their postwar existence?

The evidence would be old Jews with eastern or central European accents you run into wherever Jews can be found. There are fewer and fewer but they're still there.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Didn't I read that there were only about 200,000 Jewish people left in Germany?

Hi Clayton! I see you are still having problems with basic concepts as you are a junior holocaust denier. Let us help you.....

Firstly, you failed to read the Wikipedia article, you quoted, in full and left out this quote.. "90% of the 214,000 Jews still left in Germany in 1939 were killed during the war" and "Additionally, approximately 15,000 German Jews survived the concentration camps or survived by going into hiding" Was that just an error, as you are incompetent, or a lie on purpose?

Secondly, you don't seem to understand that Treblinka, Auschwitz and the other camps being discussed were in Poland and other countries. Do you got a map of Europe that you can look at? This will help reduce your ongoing confusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ews_in_Germany_from_1945_to_the_reunification

Thirdly, you never back up your claims or follow through your arguments when questioned. Is this your own technique or a general holocaust deniers technique you use?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Of course not. What trial are you talking about and where are the court documents?

The trial I mentioned in the post you replied to. NMT trial #9, known as "the Einsatzgruppen trial," as I wrote about Ott and Braune. You pontificate about this but, in your own words, you, of course, are not aware of the facts of matter nor even where Ott and Braune were tried?

Yeah...uh. We'll need to see the transcripts of the trial and the verdict to see what you're talking about.

Be my guest.

This idea that the men were convicted because the wholesale slaughter of Commies would be a defense but since it was Jews, it's a crime. That sounds like your spin on it.

That is not my interpretation: you are confusing what the defendants tried to argue with my interpretation of the conviction. The court's judgment in the case, FWIW, noting the various groups of Einsatzgruppen victims, concluded that Jews were the main targets, that the defense argument about defending Germany from Bolshevism was unreasonable and unsubstantiated, and that the Jewish victims were murdered because they were Jews and in concert with Nazi racial ideology.

But what's it going to do to prove gas plan six? You continue to run away from this.

I have answered this over and over, specifically arguing that your dumbed-down and narrow definition of the Holocaust is not one I share nor one scholars share. I've quoted from the USHMM and Nick on this definition and cited Hilberg's component elements of the Holocaust. And, finally, I've shown both how you deny more than what you say with your truncated formula and that the mobile killing actions are part of even your poor definition: the 1.4 million victims make up a significant part of the murdered Jews and these people were killed as part of policies for exterminating Jews and intentionally.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling......even full Jewish men served in the German armed forces during World War II, including several generals and at least one field marshal, Erhard Milch.

Hi Clayton! Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot again.

Can you explain what government policy existed in Germany that required Göring to fake Milch's background? Any idea at all?

Two years later, the Gestapo looked into allegations that Milch’s father was Jewish. His friend and ally, Luftwaffe chief Hermann Göring, suppressed the investigation and forged a document claiming Milch’s biological father was his maternal uncle and a Christian. Göring also produced a certificate that faked Milch’s Aryan purity. When criticized for shielding a Jew, Göring quoted Karl Lueger, the anti-Semitic mayor of Vienna at the turn of the century: “I will decide who is a Jew.”

 

[Matthew Ellard]

.....referencing the six million you are so certain didn't die in the camps; where is the evidence for their postwar existence?

The evidence would be old Jews with eastern or central European accents you run into wherever Jews can be found. There are fewer and fewer but they're still there.

I see..... Can you name the specific post war Jewish community that you have looked at that gave you this impression? I mean....you have looked haven't you? Please give up your best example so we may have a look ourselves.

 

[000063]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling



Didn't I read that there were only about 200,000 Jewish people left in Germany?

You do realize that exact same article specifically said that Hitler personally reviewed the applications and granted exceptions? You even quoted it. Either you are deluded, or you are actively lying. Given that it would be an incredibly transparent lie...

Hi Clayton! Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot again.
...

I have this odd image of a Tommy gun on full-auto.

I see..... Can you name the specific post war Jewish community that you have looked at that gave you this impression? I mean....you have looked haven't you? Please give up your best example so we may have a look ourselves.

Wouldn't that be more anthropology, rather than history? Or etymology?

 

[A'isha]

I see..... Can you name the specific post war Jewish community that you have looked at that gave you this impression? I mean....you have looked haven't you? Please give up your best example so we may have a look ourselves.

And how he can tell that they're postwar emigrants, instead of prewar emigrants. The time spanning the Nazis being merely one political party in Wiemar Germany to the height of the Nazi mass-murder of Jews was only a decade, after all.

Finding Jews with accents in modern Jewish communities and saying "aha! Obviously they survived the Nazi murders, therefore the Holocaust never happened!" is one of the dumbest arguments for denialism I've seen. And this thread is a neverending goldmine of dumb denier arguments.

 

[LemmyCaution]

And how he can tell that they're postwar emigrants, instead of prewar emigrants. The time spanning the Nazis being merely one political party in Wiemar Germany to the height of the Nazi mass-murder of Jews was only a decade, after all.

How can you all even tell what he's arguing? He posts one liners and links without responding to arguments made and without explaining what he is trying to say.

 

[Cyrix686]

LC:

The period 1933 to 1939 saw Jewish population in Germany drop, due to Nazi racial policies including discriminatory laws, forced Aryanization and pauperization of the Jewish community, and the "encouragement" of emigration. The same policies introduced in 1938-1939 in Austria and the Protectorate had the same results there. One thing is certain: Dogzilla's best sorting of the puzzle is dreadfully wrong. Which was the point of this discussion, wasn't it?

Additionally there was an abnormally high level of Jewish suicide. Particularly amongst older couples. The Nazis veered between gloating over Jewish suicide as a result of their vile policies or trying to hide the figures.

 

[A'isha]

How can you all even tell what he's arguing? He posts one liners and links without responding to arguments made and without explaining what he is trying to say.

Because his arguments may be colossally dumb, but at least they're pathetically transparent.

 

[LemmyCaution]

LC:

Additionally there was an abnormally high level of Jewish suicide. Particularly amongst older couples. The Nazis veered between gloating over Jewish suicide as a result of their vile policies or trying to hide the figures.

Not to mention pogroms - organized violence - like Kristallnacht, a Nazi attack on the Jewish community for which Jews, who were victims of the attack, were jailed and for which the Jewish community was forced to pay a large fine. Not to mention petty harassment designed to make the lives of Jews in Germany so miserable that they'd leave . . . and so on.

 

[Cyrix686]

This Jewish accents one, reminds me of the checking the telephone directory for Jewish surnames one...

Though "no Jews no Holocaust" by Dogzilla should be in the Stundie finals and I do hope that those of you reading along or participating in this discussion will send it spinning to the bottom of the stupid land by voting for it when the time comes. Thus joining it's subnormal brother in thought the "winning" Stundie, by FP. Berg. This notoriously dense idea:

"Jews could survive in a gas chamber by "simply" holding their breath for half an hour."

 

[LemmyCaution]

Finding Jews with accents in modern Jewish communities and saying "aha! Obviously they survived the Nazi murders, therefore the Holocaust never happened!" is one of the dumbest arguments for denialism I've seen. And this thread is a neverending goldmine of dumb denier arguments.

Astonishing. We are back to Nessie's near-prediction of this

However, I would say that if the Nazis had won and had total control of Europe, they may have still been Jewish survivors as plans are rarely 100% successful, not all Germans and others mentioned such as Bulgarians were anti-semitic.

That in no way disproves the Holocaust.

although he didn't foresee "proof by accent."