• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Higgs Boson Discovered?!

MattusMaximus: yes, and I should say your 'bottom line' was always correct. The text you quote is a little ambiguous but it's consistent with what I'd consider right ;-)

Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!
 
How difficult it is to draw a balance between reading the news about this awesome discovery (like as not) and avoiding the staggeringly ignorant comments of the general public. "So what?" "Why don't these so-called scientists do something useful?" "Why not use the money to feed starving Africans!?" "They don't even know what use this will be - what's the point?"

Thick people - OK.
People with opinions - OK.
Thick people with opinions - not OK.
 
It's reasonably safe to say "creating".



There's no reasonable sense in which bosons "have size" or "take up space". It's like looking at a radio antenna and asking whether there's space between the radio waves.
I didn't just mean the bosons or photons or gravitons for that matter. I just meant of all the elementary particles what do you get.

We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.
 
Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!

BBC news caption I read referred to CERNE. So they don't get it all right.
 
MattusMaximus: yes, and I should say your 'bottom line' was always correct. The text you quote is a little ambiguous but it's consistent with what I'd consider right ;-)

Thanks, edd :)

Incidentally my jaw nearly fell off this morning when the BBC posted an article online that got it spot on - it's such a common error it's honestly astounding when the media gets it right!

Well, to be fair to the media, I have an advanced degree in physics, I teach physics at both the high school and college level, and I try to be as technically correct as I am able, but I still screw up some of the details on the really cutting-edge stuff like this discovery (such as I did above).

And if someone with my level of training and interest can make such errors, it isn't hard to imagine the typical media wonk making them as well.

Thanks for helping to put the 'E' in JREF!
 
I didn't just mean the bosons or photons or gravitons for that matter. I just meant of all the elementary particles what do you get.

We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.

The beginnings of a black hole????
 
How difficult it is to draw a balance between reading the news about this awesome discovery (like as not) and avoiding the staggeringly ignorant comments of the general public. "So what?" "Why don't these so-called scientists do something useful?" "Why not use the money to feed starving Africans!?" "They don't even know what use this will be - what's the point?"

Thick people - OK.
People with opinions - OK.
Thick people with opinions - not OK.

I think a wonderful way to address these sort of questions/criticism was summed up very well by the director of CERN in this morning's press conference. The last question they took was along these lines, and he answered it beautifully...

Download the press conference here:
https://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1459604
--> go to the 58:38 mark in the video for the question and response.

I have transcribed the response below:
First of all, I don't think you should neglect other things, you have to find the right balance to do things. And one of the, to my mind, most important balance is to balance science in the sense that you support applied science and fundamental science. To me, there's only one science, and there's a whole grey area, so it ranges from absolutely fundamental to absolutely applied. But you have to keep in mind there is a virtuous circle: you have fundamental science which drives innovation which drives applied science... and if you break this virtuous circle, you break something for mankind. So you have to be very careful not to break that circle somehow.

Secondly, in a more blunt statement, if there's no fundamental or basic science, then you lose the basis for applied science. And you should look around at how many things came out of the basic, "blue-sky" science compared to the applied science.

You have to get the right balance. If you have one sack of corn, do you eat it or do you plant it? In both cases you are going to starve and die. You have to find the balance: part of it you eat, and part of it you plant. And this balance has to be found...

And you should also see what comes out of this [basic] scientific innovation. I mean, 23 years ago, the World Wide Web was born here, and this has changed the world dramatically. It was born because we needed it, because we were doing our science.

So if you take all of this together, I think there's a lot of justification, once you find the right balance, but the right balance cannot mean that you suppress either fundamental or that you suppress applied science.

I especially like his analogy about the corn. Too bad that quote is too long for a sig file :)
 
Last edited:
I didn't just mean the bosons or photons or gravitons for that matter. I just meant of all the elementary particles what do you get.

We tend to view solid things as taking up the amount of space that their visible mass occupies. But there's a lot space between the molecules, and a lot of space between the protons and electrons within the molecules and a lot of space between the particles that make up the protons and neutrons and so on. I was just wondering what you'd have left if you squeezed all the proverbial air out of the molecule balloons.

That space is simply vacuum. So there's nothing to "squeeze out", in that sense.

Or are you referring to simply forgoing the intervening space and putting all those particles together into the smallest volume possible? If so, then I have to agree with the statement above that you're likely moving towards something akin to either a neutron star or black hole.
 
Last edited:
Well I for one was blown away by the news although they said it was a bit premature and would have liked to have a had a couple of more weeks to prepare. Evidently CNN was not impressed. I turned on the news at noon to see what folks were saying and all they were talking about was some fungus in the Himalaya's that acts like viagra. They didn't even mention it.

....

There have been major articles in the National Post and a link on the Bloomberg home page so I am satisfied that the media has recognised this as a significant story.
 

Back
Top Bottom