General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Dcdrac]

Why do you hate punctuation?

It does not detract from the fact you know nothing about this subject.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton you are no more qualified to comment on this than Dogzilla is all you both betray is clear ignorance of what you are discussing in this and other threads we see your knoweldge is not based on any real research into the subject to hand and is entirely gleaned from the internet.

Yeah sure. Your knoweldge is ever so telling.

 

[dafydd]

Your knoweldge is ever so telling.

You got one thing right. Knowledge.

 

[TSR]

Why do you hate punctuation?

Really?

You're reduced to grammar lames?

Why don't you just *read* the report already?

 

[000063]

Yeah sure. Your knoweldge is ever so telling.

As is the fact that you refuse to explain the need for exemptions.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Why did Hitler have to authorise exemptions?

He didn't. The link I provided clearly states that.

 

[dafydd]

He didn't. The link I provided clearly states that.

Did you actually read it?

 

[LemmyCaution]

No. That's one you guys made up ad hoc. It's among the more useless arguments you've made for rejecting evidence. But since you guys seem to think it has value I thought we should apply it here.

You guys? Me? What evidence am I rejecting and by what standard I've made up?

So what is the gold standard of a document's value in reconstructing the past?

You announced the gold standard of use in court; my point is that use in court cases is irrelevant to the value of a document in reconstructing historical events. I didn't announce a gold standard.

Please explain how that gold standard has been applied to evidence for the holocaust that has been used in a trial. I mean, if there is any evidence for the holocaust that has also been used as evidence in a court of law.

I don't follow you. The value of the Jaeger report is not wrapped up in its use in trials.

Nothing you linked to on that hate site explains how anything specific to the Jaeger Report was used as specific evidence to convict any specific defendant and that the court believed that the evidence was true.

Actually, I didn't link to a hate site, I linked to THHP.

That you wrote

When has the Jaeger Report been introduced into evidence in any court?

I assumed you didn't know the answer. Despite the link explaining this. Apparently, I was giving you too much credit, as trolling seems to be in your DNA. I don't know the particulars of the various cases, if that's what you're asking, only that a) that the Jaeger report has been introduced as evidence in a number of trials and b) that the link's reference to this fact, including a specific trial with a specific date, makes your asking when the document has been introduced as evidence come across either as disingenuous or stupid. (I hope you noticed how the Jaeger report was used in two proceeding against Stelmokas. At least the court seems to have read the document.)

As an aside, why does that article insist that the Jaeger Report is authentic? Isn't a document that somebody uses as evidence assumed to be authentic?

Is it? I wasn't aware that evidence isn't challenged, and authenticated, in court cases.

I didn't write the article so I can only guess. But since deniers, like your old friend LGR, have claimed that the report isn't authentic, and the THHP's purpose includes

direct refutation of Holocaust-denial,

it doesn't take more intelligence than that of a gnat for you to guess. Since IIRC Jurgen Graf claimed that the Jaeger report was a Soviet forgery, perhaps coming from bunny's Moscow Forgery Factory, that is what the author of the THHP article had in mind.

You yourself may recall that months ago I advised you thus:

LGR has always thrown the forgery card to escape this trouble - or pulled tricks like mixing up Kovno and Vilna or dating undated documents or promising to make a case against the OSRs but getting busy with Libya or fictionalizing the provenance of Kruk's diary.

What will you do to explain the overwhelming evidence explaining the reduction of Vilna's Jewish population in summer and fall 1941?

and

(Note that Jaeger's Report lists Jews and Jewesses separate from Communists.)

Here is about when deniers, without any grounds, squeal "Forgery!"

You've been so backed into a corner over this matter I've wondered what has taken you so long.

If I picked up my car from the valet, and the valet tells me that he didn't rifle through the glove compartment looking for money, I get a little suspicious. Was there any doubt about this document's authenticity? It looks like courts of law have accepted the document's authenticity but since usefulness in a court isn't the gold standard of a documents value for reconstructing the past, has it's authenticity been confirmed outside of a court of law? Please tell me that Karl Jaeger isn't a person who is known to us only through an entry in diary that was written by a dead guy who buried it right before he was shot.

Grow up. Are you really as ignorant as you make out in this forum?

Does the Jaeger Report document the shooting of anybody identified as a Communist? Yes or No?

Oops, see above. By my count, Jaeger has 2,059 people he's identified as Communists being shot by his squad - against approximately 53,100 Jewish men, 48,300 Jewish women, and 29,300 Jewish children. You should remember that I've written about this previously, which calls into question why you keep trolling along these familiar lines of yours. Here is what I wrote in January of this year:

Jaeger entered execution actions in list form, in roughly chronological order, noting the date, location, the number of people killed, and special comments. The entry for each execution action broke the victims into categories, by far the greatest number being Jews, who are almost always listed as Jews, Jewesses, or Jewish children. Other victim categories included Communists, active Communists, females Russian Communists, Communist functionaries, Russian Communists, Lithuanian Communists, Jewish Commnunists, politruks, Poles, mentally ill people, criminals, Lithuanian NKVD agents, Lithuanians, Latvians, Zigeuner (Gypsies), Russian POWs, superfluous Jews, German and Austrian Jews, terrorists, and partisans. Victims also included a convert to Judaism, a Russian guardsman, a mayor, a corpse robber, and an Armenian. Jaeger's report accounts for executions of about 137,000 people in Lithuania – 133,000 directly under Jaeger’s command. The victims were overwhelmingly Jews (~135,000) with a number of victims in the other categories (~2,000). The Jewish victims were mainly adult males before the third week in August. From late August on, more and more Jewish women were killed as well as large numbers of Jewish children – from 22 August to 1 December at least 47,000 women were executed and well over 30,000 children. In a number of entries, Jaeger's addition is off, with his total for the action not matching the totals listed in each category. Some entries represent killings over weeks rather than single execution actions.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7973269&postcount=9600

Do you have a reading comprehension problem, or are you trying to make out that I haven't written about this previously?

 

[Nessie]

He didn't. The link I provided clearly states that.

Yet in your post this quote

"In light of how aggressively Hitler pursued the extermination of the Jews, it is surprising how much time he spent reviewing applications for exemptions from the racial laws submitted by Mischlinge. One can understand his careful analysis of the pros and cons of removing a Mischling general from his post, but to many to whom Hitler granted these coveted exemptions were common soldiers with the ranks of private or NCO. Hitler's exemptions and the actions of thousands of Ayran officers, including men close to Hitler, in support of Mishclinge contradicted the Nazis' Weltanschauung. What is particularly difficult to believe that the antisemite Hitler himself granted even one exemption from the racial laws. But he personally issued many. As Kershaw wrote, "Nothing was as it seemed in the Third Reich."

and from the Wikipedia link

"Requests for reclassification (e.g., Jew as Mischling of 1st degree, 1st degree as 2nd degree) or Aryanization (see German Blood Certificate) were personally reviewed by Adolf Hitler. Apparently, he considered the issue important enough to him that he found time to review a few thousand such files."

Then there were the links to the study of Jews in the military and how Hitler's signature is on exemptions.

So Hitler did grant the exemptions. Why?

 

[Dcdrac]

Clayton paert of my first degree had a history Major, I have been to Wanassee and seen with my own eyes the documents outlining the Final Solution, you might have heard of the Wanasee Conference?

I have lived and worked in Germany half my working life and can speak German.

I have read most of the major studies of the Nazis, the Holocaust and biographies of Hitler.

All I see from you is a selection of Internet droolings.

 

[000063]

He didn't. The link I provided clearly states that.

Requests for reclassification (e.g., Jew as Mischling of 1st degree, 1st degree as 2nd degree) or Aryanization (see German Blood Certificate) were personally reviewed by Adolf Hitler. Apparently, he considered the issue important enough to him that he found time to review a few thousand such files.

are you insane

 

[LemmyCaution]

No single piece of evidence can prove that something didn't happen.

Really? If someone says they killed me, and then I show up alive, that wouldn't show that the killing of me didn't happen?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I guess it's time to remind the Holocaustics that the reason Jewish people were being sent to concentration camps was their Communist affiliations. Jewish people were large and in charge in the USSR Germany's most hated enemy. It was no different than the gathering up of the Japanese in the USA.

I doubt if there were courts in the USA where exemptions to the gathering were granted.

 

[Nessie]

Clayton and Dogzilla, why did Hitler have to authorise the exemptions?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I cite you as evidence that Team holocaust doesn't have the story straight. Isn't it you who once understood the potential problems that could arise when people are exposed to misinformation in schools or museums? You guys need to make up your minds about what somebody needs to "deny" before they can be called a holocaust "denier."

Dishonest. You really should allow Nessie to speak for himself and not create a fictitious team onto which you place him as a member. I mean, I can understand why you feel the need to pull this crap, but it is childish and speaks very poorly for your ability to make an honest case and to address Nessie's honest questions.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton and Dogzilla, why did Hitler have to authorise the exemptions?

He obviously didn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling#Numbers_of_people_considered_Mischlinge

Further de facto reclassifications, however, missing any official document, were privileges accorded certain artists and other experts by way of special protection by high-ranking Nazis.[12]

A second way of reclassification was by way of declaratory action in court. Usually the discriminated person took the action, doubting his genetical descent from the Jewish-classified man until then regarded the biological (grand)father.[13] Paternity suits aiming for reclassification (German: Abstammungsverfahren) appeared mostly with deceased, divorced or illegitimate (grand)fathers. They usually aimed at improving the discriminated and persecuted litigant's status from Jewish-classified to Mischling of first degree, or Mischling of first degree to second degree. The numbers of such suits soared when the Nazi government imposed new discriminations and persecutions (Nuremberg Laws 1935, November Pogrom 1938, and systematic deportations of Jewish Germans and Gentile Germans of Jewish descent to concentration camps, 1941).[14]

 

[LemmyCaution]

I guess it's time to remind the Holocaustics that the reason Jewish people were being sent to concentration camps was their Communist affiliations. Jewish people were large and in charge in the USSR Germany's most hated enemy. It was no different than the gathering up of the Japanese in the USA.

I doubt if there were courts in the USA where exemptions to the gathering were granted.

Oh, now it is all clear, since you are recycling Nazi lies.

 

[000063]

I guess it's time to remind the Holocaustics that the reason Jewish people were being sent to concentration camps was their Communist affiliations. Jewish people were large and in charge in the USSR Germany's most hated enemy. It was no different than the gathering up of the Japanese in the USA.

I doubt if there were courts in the USA where exemptions to the gathering were granted.

Weird. No complaints about people ignoring HDV? That's what you normally do at this point.

And, of course, no evidence of such. If they were being sent to camps for being communist, why doesn't the Jager report list them as "Communists"?

There are significant differences between the Japanese internment camps and the Nazi concentration camps. Most obviously, America did not kill Japanese in those camps on an industrial scale. However, no one with any sense denies that it is a shameful chapter in American history, just like no one with any sense seeks to excuse, downplay, and deny the actions of the Germans.

[SNIP]

Also, why the need for exceptions, as even the excerpt you quoted clearly states?

Edited by kmortis: 

removed personal comments

 

[Dogzilla]

Answer the question, Dogzilla;



It is entirely relevant to the thread whether you still believe in the theory you advanced. Your comprehension of the arguments of others is also relevant. The only reason you think other's positions are "needlessly complex" is because you don't understand them. A qualified "yes" being the same as a "no" is only valid if you are trying to strip all detail and nuance from the debate, or are unable to understand same.

Plus, there's your entirely vague definition of "relevance", which seems to automatically exclude any point you don't want to address, curiously.

I would not call them "imaginary Jews" per se. But my answer to "where did they go?" is the same answer Team holocaust gives when I ask where did the 2.9 million victims go when Auschwitz lowered the death toll from 4 million to 1.1 million or so?

And don't try the "no scholar ever accepted that number" gambit. Maybe no scholar in the West accepted that number but those on the other side of the Iron Curtain didn't reject it. You guys have no problem accepting the reliability of Eastern bloc forensic reports when they say what you want so you can't reject what they said when it doesn't. Besides, any time the mass media in the West published a death toll for Auschwitz, that death toll was 4 million up until 1989. If holocaust scholars didn't believe that number then I guess that means holocaust scholars don't have much impact on our understanding of the holocaust.

 

[000063]

He obviously didn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling#Numbers_of_people_considered_Mischlinge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling#Reclassification_procedure

Requests for reclassification (e.g., Jew as Mischling of 1st degree, 1st degree as 2nd degree) or Aryanization (see German Blood Certificate) were personally reviewed by Adolf Hitler. Apparently, he considered the issue important enough to him that he found time to review a few thousand such files.

I note that you stopped quoting the part that specifically says that Hitler reviewed the requests for exception personally.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8425162#post8425162

This is another example of you putting your foot in it, just like your nonsense about Jewish POWs which no one asked you about and you haven't referred to since. You're self-debunking.