Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

Whoever does it, make sure you count how many bangs against the pavement it takes before you start to worry and get scared.

Actually, the first step would be to determine if Zimmerman's wounds were caused by his head repeatedly striking concrete. Because right now, it's just an assumption.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, Serino essentially told the world that he believed GZ's story and that all the evidence supported GZ's story.

Serino is going to have to explain those comments in court.

Perhaps he said them for GZ's ears?

That's a very liberal interpretation of what could also be interpreted as a measure statement from a man who doesn't believe Zimmerman, but has no evidence to prove it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

W14 saw a man laying on the ground who couldn't get up and yelling for help. He looked like he was wearing a red shirt. "The person on the ground was yelling help."

Witness 14 Saw only one guy on the ground he thought had fallen and broken his leg and that's why he was yelling for help.

http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W14_SPD03052012.wav
"Was he white or black ? "
"Couldn't tell. "
"Did you see what he was wearing ? "
"It looked like a red shirt."
"The person on the ground was yelling help."

So the only person he saw was wearing a red shirt and yelling for help. Sounds like it matches GZ narrative.

W18 saw two people struggling on the ground - one possibly hispanic - but couldn't identify either. She heard more than one gunshot. She saw a "broad-built man" "get off the ground" and then the Flashlight man.

Witness 18. She saw a "heavier man on top", two men on ground.
W18_SPD02262012(1).wav
W18_SPD02262012(2).wav
W18_SPD02262012.wav
W18_SPD02262012call.wav <--911 Call

Page 88 for written statement.

"For some reason, in my head, all I can think is heavier man on top, but I don't ... can't say for sure." (1:20)

W12 looked out and "didn't see anything." then a shot. She looked again and saw two figures on the ground. She sounds like the wife of Flashlight Man.

Witness 12:Bigger man was on top. "I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size.”
W12_FDLE03202012(3).wav
W12_FDLE03202012(4).wav
W12SAO403262012.wav

http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W12SAO403262012.wav
BDLR: "How would you describe their physique, at all, of the guy on top or the guy on the bottom?"
"I know after seeing the TV of whats happening, comparing their pictures, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size.”

But her interview with FDLE:
http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W12_FDLE03202012(3).wav

She looked out the window 3 times.
She looked out and saw shadows the first time.
She looked out the window and didn't see anything the second time.
Then she heard a shot.
She looked out the window and saw two men on the grass after the shot.
"One was on top of the other, I don't know which one "

W3 saw a man on top with a "white T-shirt." Someone was screaming for help, which prompted her to call 911. While on the phone she heard the gunshot.

Witness 3: Saw a white T-Shirt of the guy on top. "I'm assuming the guy with the gun is not a good person."
W3_FDLE03192012.wav
W3_SPD02262012.wav <--911 call

Witness 1: Couldn't see. "They were running in the back." Sounded like kids playing around, "roughhousing."

Let's clear up the 'gun' issue:
"When did you first become aware of a gun ?" (10:10)
"just when you hear it, like you can't see, you couldn't see anything"

"I was confused though, because there was no one in a white shirt, was there ? That's what confuses me. The guy in the handcuffs had a hoodie on " Yes, she was confused.

W1 was making dinner, heard screams, looked outside and saw "arms flailing" She saw W6 come out and issue his warning.

Note: Witness 6 never "came out" - he stayed inside the whole time. In the few seconds he saw, he opened glass siding door and yelled he was calling 911/

Yes, witness 6 just opened the door. Witness 1 described it as come out to issue a warning.

So at the end of all this ... these witnesses support GZ narrative, with the exception of witness 18, whose most damning statement is : "For some reason, in my head, all I can think is heavier man on top, but I don't ... can't say for sure." (1:20)

Where are all the witnesses that support all of these alternate theories ?

 

[bookworm]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...s-9-20120702_1_prosecutors-statements-witness


Uh, yeah. We know he's a racist because of his mySpace page where he disparaged Mexicans, but it wouldn't surprise me if more people could testify to George's bigotry.

O'Mara may be right that Lester wouldn't let it into the trial, but I don't see why we can't consider it here, right?

I personally can't give any credence to this. I've seen too many angry exes willing to do anything they can to hurt their ex. When I balance this against all the evidence I've seen contradicting it, it falls apart.

 

[Unabogie]

http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W14_SPD03052012.wav
"Was he white or black ? "
"Couldn't tell. "
"Did you see what he was wearing ? "
"It looked like a red shirt."
"The person on the ground was yelling help."

So the only person he saw was wearing a red shirt and yelling for help. Sounds like it matches GZ narrative.





Page 88 for written statement.

"For some reason, in my head, all I can think is heavier man on top, but I don't ... can't say for sure." (1:20)





http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W12SAO403262012.wav
BDLR: "How would you describe their physique, at all, of the guy on top or the guy on the bottom?"
"I know after seeing the TV of whats happening, comparing their pictures, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size.”

But her interview with FDLE:
http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W12_FDLE03202012(3).wav

She looked out the window 3 times.
She looked out and saw shadows the first time.
She looked out the window and didn't see anything the second time.
Then she heard a shot.
She looked out the window and saw two men on the grass after the shot.
"One was on top of the other, I don't know which one "





Let's clear up the 'gun' issue:
"When did you first become aware of a gun ?" (10:10)
"just when you hear it, like you can't see, you couldn't see anything"

"I was confused though, because there was no one in a white shirt, was there ? That's what confuses me. The guy in the handcuffs had a hoodie on " Yes, she was confused.





Yes, witness 6 just opened the door. Witness 1 described it as come out to issue a warning.

So at the end of all this ... these witnesses support GZ narrative, with the exception of witness 18, whose most damning statement is : "For some reason, in my head, all I can think is heavier man on top, but I don't ... can't say for sure." (1:20)

Where are all the witnesses that support all of these alternate theories ?

I think you've proven two things here:

1. We don't have enough evidence from the witnesses to draw solid conclusions. It was dark, at least lightly raining, and none of the witnesses have been cross examined.
2. Since none of the witnesses are very sure about anything, we're left with the chief witness being one George Zimmerman. His credibility is left for you to decide.

 

[Rare Truth]

You might also consider how the dogwalk area is graded. Zimmerman wouldn't really be laying flat and level at the time he was being attacked by Martin. Instead, he was in a moving altercation, changing position over uneven ground, struggling to get up then being sat up, cleaned, placed in a police car cuffed from behind, etc...

There's way too many variables involved to draw any reasonable conclusion from the end state.

Actually, if you listen to that witness, the moaning and such that was heard did not happen before.

You have to listen to it for yourself, and in her telling, there is no way it could have happened after the shot. The witness was some 80 feet away, so consider that.

 

[Rare Truth]

The blood trail evidence exists as a recorded history of the events that transpired. It may not be sufficient to conclude exactly what happened. But it must be consistent with any theory that is advanced.


There are symmetrical streaks on either side of GZ's head running from the wounds on the back of his head, behind each ear and forward to the lower jaw. Blood flows predominately down hill so it can be ruled out that these were created while Zimmerman was on his back. They already exist in the photo taken three minutes after the shooting so that rules out the time GZ was sitting in hand cuffs in the back of the patrol car.

I've never heard any good explanation for the unusual blood flow that appeared on his head. Not many people just seeing that head - not knowing the circumstances - and the pattern of the blood, would come to the conclusion it was a head going back, bashed against concrete repeatedly.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This raises all kinds of questions. GZ's story is that he was coming home from grocery shopping when he happened to observe a "suspicious" character in his neighborhood. Is there anything -- receipts, charge slips, security monitors -- to indicate when or if he was actually at a store? Do they know when FT left his "unsecured" home and when he returned? Any indication that they called each other the day of the event? Did anybody see GZ parked around the house for any length of time before the event? If this really was a set-up it seems likely that GZ would have thought hard about what he would say and do if he really did see someone "suspicious."

That's not his story.

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2012/06/21/Zimmerman_Written_Statement_.pdf

"Tonight. I was on my way to the grocery store..."

 

[triforcharity]

I've never heard any good explanation for the unusual blood flow that appeared on his head. Not many people just seeing that head - not knowing the circumstances - and the pattern of the blood, would come to the conclusion it was a head going back, bashed against concrete repeatedly.

I don't think it's unusual. If (Again, big if) his head was being smashed on the concrete, he's going to be trying to hold it up as best he can. Heck, even just in a fight, you don't want your head on the ground. You'll be trying to hold it up. Afterwards, it's not unusual to hold your head down. Not sure why, bit it always seems like a natural reaction.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think you've proven two things here:

1. We don't have enough evidence from the witnesses to draw solid conclusions. It was dark, at least lightly raining, and none of the witnesses have been cross examined.
2. Since none of the witnesses are very sure about anything, we're left with the chief witness being one George Zimmerman. His credibility is left for you to decide.

The part about I hilited is not true.

Some of the witnesses are sure about some things. For example, Witness 6 never wavered on who was on top. I am sure there are other facts that did not change.

So, we are left with the narrative of GZ, which the witness interviews/statements don't really contradict.

We are left waiting on the SA to produce a viable scenario that fits all the witnesses statements and proves murder 2.

 

[Unabogie]

I personally can't give any credence to this. I've seen too many angry exes willing to do anything they can to hurt their ex. When I balance this against all the evidence I've seen contradicting it, it falls apart.

So you also don't give credence to his own racist ranting on his mySpace page? And I'm sure you also disregard the fact that he only seems to call the police on black males?

1. He only calls the police on black males or almost predominantly on black males.
2. He ranted on his mySpace page about Mexicans with knives, which is racist by any standard, is it not?
3. His ex-girlfriend, who knows him better than Frank Taffe, says he is, and was willing to go to the police and testify so. And ask Shellie Zimmerman how smart it is to lie under oath.

And so with all of that, you find it easy to dismiss the issue? So what evidence would suffice beyond racist writings, and a person close to him saying he is?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I've never heard any good explanation for the unusual blood flow that appeared on his head. Not many people just seeing that head - not knowing the circumstances - and the pattern of the blood, would come to the conclusion it was a head going back, bashed against concrete repeatedly.

Why would it require any explanation ?

If he is laying on his back, the blood goes straight down, from the back of his head to the ground.

After he shoots TM and gets on top. his head is likely in the position shown, facing down and leaning forward.

The blood then drips forward.

As with all these ... questions ... if the police doing the investigation thought they were legitimate things to be concerned with, would they not have noted them ? Wouldn't they be in Serinos report with was used to create the capias ? The direction of the blood dripping on GZ head, the supposed lack of blood on TM hands. These are not legitimate issues with GZ narrative.

 

[Rare Truth]

Wow. Not even so much as a headache the next day.

His wound size on the back of his head was....wait for it


1/8" - 2cm

GZ only went to the doctor to get a release for work.

The medical report, finally released: http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/docu..._exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf

He was in amazingly good shape for a guy who had been so horribly pummeled the night before by a 160 pound teenager.

GZ weighed in at 204.

 

[Rare Truth]

Correction:

2cm = 3/4"

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...0703_1_bond-motion-county-courthouse-teenager

SANFORD – The judge in George Zimmerman's second-degree murder case said Tuesday that he expects to rule Thursday on whether to release the defendant or keep him locked up in the Seminole County Jail.

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. made the announcement at the close of his afternoon court session.

He has begun drafting the order, he told the nearly-empty courtroom, and expects to file it Thursday.

 

[Cylinder]

Why would it require any explanation ?

If he is laying on his back, the blood goes straight down, from the back of his head to the ground.

After he shoots TM and gets on top. his head is likely in the position shown, facing down and leaning forward.

Actually, the blood would never have been expected to flow straight down if Zimmerman remained in his shooting position. The dogwalk has a distinct grade and Zimmerman's head ended upslope of his feet - nearest the sidewalk. W6 describes the altercation as being roughly parallel to the sidewalk and ending perpendicular.

As you know, nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe being lifted by his heels and held upside down for any signifigant period of time.

 

[Cylinder]

We don't have enough evidence from the witnesses to draw solid conclusions. It was dark, at least lightly raining, and none of the witnesses have been cross examined.

What do you mean by cross-examined? It was the state who did the interview in the first place. The witnesses who saw enough detail to provide identifying features (e.g. W6, W14, W1) corroborate each other's statements and Zimmerman's. Four people - none aware of the other's statement - give the same details. The state does not explain that away. ****, a defense attorney doesn't explain that level corroboration away.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

As you know, nowhere in Zimmerman's narrative does he describe being lifted by his heels and held upside down for any signifigant period of time.

Maybe he was hiding in a tree swinging upside down like a bat as he was watching Frank Taaffe's house which they had purposely left the door open on to lure a burglar into.

 

[Unabogie]

Some interesting stuff from the medical report:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/99022693/George-Zimmerman-Medical-Report

Sorry if this has been covered but we're all behind because of the moderation.

1. His nose was "likely broken". But he never went to the ENT guy, did they? So no xray or anything.
2. Weird, but his doctor wrote out George's side of the story in detail, including that he was viciously assaulted but discharged his legally carried weapon and killed that thug. Is that normal for a medical report from a family doctor?
3. His doctor called him "white". So, does George call himself that when he fills out forms? Seems so.
4. The extent of his injuries, according to his own doctor, was two cuts on the back of his head ~2 centimeters long that didn't need stitches or even a bandage, and a sore nose.

 

[Unabogie]

Oh, and George weighed 204 lbs when he killed Trayvon. That's almost what, a fifty pound difference? 50!!!