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Why not a national ID card?

Babbylonian said:
Could you back up that assertion, please? Perhaps at least to demonstrate that it would be significantly different from the current situation where, in theory, your identity could be "stolen" in 50 separate states?
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The assertion was made that fraud will be 'harder' once the federal government and its employees get involved.

Here is a small sample of the reality on that point:

http://www.govexec.com/federal-news/1998/09/lack-of-controls-leads-to-dod-fraud/4377/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-09-06-tsa-identities_x.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/28/pf/taxes/irs-tax-fraud/index.htm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/23/irs-staff-committed-tax-credit-fraud/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lent-social-security-payments-watchdog-finds/
http://articles.cnn.com/2005-04-19/...rt-tsa-spokesman-mark-hatfield?_s=PM:POLITICS
http://nycfederaldefense.com/2012/04/what-is-social-security-administration-employee-fraud/
http://www.fbi.gov/sandiego/press-releases/2009/sd070709.htm

I won't be holding my breath for any evidence to support the OP assertion.
 
The writer claims that national ID cards will be "free", which is ludicrous. If he claimed it would be "inexpensive" then at least it would be a starting point for a conversation. Somehow I doubt that the manufacturers of the technology and the bureaucrats administering your ID card will work for no pay, for the benefit of society.
 
Trakar said:
.... there is no need for anyone to know anything beyond what I choose to reveal.....
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The boat sailed long ago on that one. It would be possible to limit the circumstances in which authorities could request the card. I have a driver's license, and when I am driving I have to show it to any police officer who asks for it. But I don't have to show it to walk down the street, and a police officer can only request ID from me if he has a valid reason. But if I open a bank account, get on a plane, go to a doctor, apply for a job, rent an apartment, write a check to a store, buy alcohol, or even pick up concert tickets, all kinds of private parties can demand my ID or refuse to provide the service I am seeking. When you sign up for a phone -- landline or cell -- or internet service, join a health club or buy almost any service that requires a contract, the provider runs a credit check. Cameras observe you on highways, city streets and in public buildings. Everybody who doesn't live in a cave needs ID. The question is whether a national ID card would be more secure and less subject to fraud than driver's licenses issued by 50 states according to their own standards, a paper Social Security card that has NO security features, etc. What would I lose with a standard national ID card that I haven't already lost with a driver's license and passport?
 
The Don said:
In the UK during the second world war, it was obligatory to carry your ID papers and to show them on demand. This was very unpopular.

If it is obligatory to carry ID, one aspect of a national ID scheme that has to be in place then the Police will be entitled to ensure that people are carrying ID. ...snip...
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If the state doesn't think I've a right to be in the country they can prove it. I don't want to live in a state in which if I forget to pick my ID up when I'm taking the dog for a walk I am doing something wrong or even criminal. And in situations that I do have to prove who I am there are already a plethora of ways to do this.
 
ravdin said:
The writer claims that national ID cards will be "free", which is ludicrous....
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I think the writer proposes that they would be issued free to the recipient. Obviously all "free" government services are paid for by taxes, and the cost of a national ID program might be a reasonable argument against it. On the other hand, if it reduced the costs of Medicare fraud, bank and credit card fraud, identity theft etc. it might be a reasonable trade-off.
 
Bob001 said:
I think the writer proposes that they would be issued free to the recipient. Obviously all "free" government services are paid for by taxes, and the cost of a national ID program might be a reasonable argument against it. On the other hand, if it reduced the costs of Medicare fraud, bank and credit card fraud, identity theft etc. it might be a reasonable trade-off.
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In the UK they wanted to charge us something like £70 a go!
 
I've been in Sweden for 12 years and I've never been stopped by the police and asked for my national ID for no reason and never met anyone else who has either.

Come to think of it, though we all have national ID numbers used for everything, there isn't any requirement to have your ID on your person at all times, or even have one.

This thread seems to come with the assumption that if you have a national ID card then everyone *has* to have one and *has* to carry it all the time.

Why is that assumed?
 
icerat said:
I've been in Sweden for 12 years and I've never been stopped by the police and asked for my national ID for no reason and never met anyone else who has either.

Come to think of it, though we all have national ID numbers used for everything, there isn't any requirement to have your ID on your person at all times, or even have one.

This thread seems to come with the assumption that if you have a national ID card then everyone *has* to have one and *has* to carry it all the time.

Why is that assumed?
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It's in the nature of many Americans to be suspicious of the gummit. Come to think of it, I suppose I am one of them.
 
crimresearch said:
The assertion ... Here is a small sample of the reality on that point:

http://www.govexec.com/federal-news/1998/09/lack-of-controls-leads-to-dod-fraud/4377/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-09-06-tsa-identities_x.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/28/pf/taxes/irs-tax-fraud/index.htm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/may/23/irs-staff-committed-tax-credit-fraud/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lent-social-security-payments-watchdog-finds/
http://articles.cnn.com/2005-04-19/...rt-tsa-spokesman-mark-hatfield?_s=PM:POLITICS
http://nycfederaldefense.com/2012/04/what-is-social-security-administration-employee-fraud/
http://www.fbi.gov/sandiego/press-releases/2009/sd070709.htm

I won't be holding my breath for any evidence to support the OP assertion.
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Most of your links are about deliberate criminal fraud, like stealing SS numbers and making false claims. There will always be criminals, and we will keep building prisons for them. But making it harder for someone to claim to be me would seem to enhance my security. Since we don't actually have a national ID system, I can't provide links about it well (or not) it works. It seems to me that some of the ID problems we hear the most about, like toddlers on TSA "no-fly" lists, are often the result of someone being mistaken for someone else, which would be harder with a secure standard ID.
 
Bob001 said:
Most of your links are about deliberate criminal fraud, like stealing SS numbers and making false claims. There will always be criminals, and we will keep building prisons for them. But making it harder for someone to claim to be me would seem to enhance my security. Since we don't actually have a national ID system, I can't provide links about it well (or not) it works. It seems to me that some of the ID problems we hear the most about, like toddlers on TSA "no-fly" lists, are often the result of someone being mistaken for someone else, which would be harder with a secure standard ID.
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What did you mean by fraud would be harder, if not deliberate criminal acts?
 
The first problem in establishing an indisputable proof of my identity is that I must first indisputably prove my identity to the people issuing the IDs. How do I do that? Birth certificate? Passport? Drivers license? How can a secure form of ID possibly be based on inherently insecure IDs?
 
DrDave said:
Actually, this is the key point - it is fundamentally flawed. Anytime you are approached by a policeman with the challenge "papers?", you just have to declare "scissors" and you win.
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Just don't make furtive movements towards your waist.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Why do we need one? Anyone capable of faking current acceptable ID would also be able to fake a national one. We already have national identification numbers in the form of Social Security Numbers, which are frequently faked and used for identity theft. What benefit would a national ID card provide?
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I can remember way back when it said on the SS card "Not for identification"..
Nowadays, it's #1 on the list of questions.
 
Trakar said:
The card itself does not bother me that much, the use and application of that card, when it can be demanded and used as a means to sort, exclude or track individuals does bother me.

If it is something that maintains and secures an individual's daily privacy I've no real problem with them, if it is something that is demanded and required everytime I try to perform any transaction or anytime anyone is curious about who I am and what other things I have done lately, then I am completely opposed to it, and see no benefit in such a system. Might as well barcode tatoo everyone at birth in a visible and accessible location.
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A private citizen was able to track the movements of his favorite author by following his debit card useage.
A private citizen!
It's that easy!
(And found the author in the CA aqueduct, where he'd been for a couple of years.)
 
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