General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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He strikes me more as an art history major. Specifically, Dadaism.

Puh-leeze. Dada made a lot more sense: here's Hugo Ball's (in)famous sound poem "Gadi Beri Bimba" as proof:

gadji beri bimba glandridi laula lonni cadori
gadjama gramma berida bimbala glandri galassassa laulitalomini
gadji beri bin blassa glassala laula lonni cadorsu sassala bim
gadjama tuffm i zimzalla binban gligla wowolimai bin beri ban
o katalominai rhinozerossola hopsamen laulitalomini hoooo
gadjama rhinozerossola hopsamen
bluku terullala blaulala loooo

zimzim urullala zimzim urullala zimzim zanzibar zimzalla zam
elifantolim brussala bulomen brussala bulomen tromtata
velo da bang band affalo purzamai affalo purzamai lengado tor
gadjama bimbalo glandridi glassala zingtata pimpalo ögrögöööö
viola laxato viola zimbrabim viola uli paluji malooo

tuffm im zimbrabim negramai bumbalo negramai bumbalo tuffm i zim
gadjama bimbala oo beri gadjama gaga di gadjama affalo pinx
gaga di bumbalo bumbalo gadjamen
gaga di bling blong
gaga blung

And more fun, too.
 
Well, Clayton, if you actually knew anything about the history, then you'd know that in France, to take one example, Jews were arrested in large numbers in 1941 and interned in camps in France, then they began to be deported in the spring of 1942 to Auschwitz. At first they were registered 100% because the first transports to Auschwitz were used as labourers to build up the camps; these transports consisted of entirely able bodied men and women.

Then in July 1942 there were more mass roundups in Paris, with 1000s being held first in a sports stadium (the Vel d'Hiv), and then transferred to Drancy, which became the main transit camp in France. They were then deported to Auschwitz in a series of transports and selected on arrival, with the able bodied being registered into the camp, and tattooed, and those unfit for work being gassed.

By the end of 1942, the Korherr report tells us that a total of 41,911 Jews had been deported from France, out of an estimated population of 300,000. The remaining quarter of a million had largely gone to ground or were trying to flee across the Swiss and Spanish borders, or into the Italian-occupied zone of the south of France, since the Italians were not deporting Jews.

Over the course of 1943 and the first nine months of 1944, a further 35,000 or so Jews were caught in France, in what was a more slow-going process for the Nazis because the intended victims were indeed alert and suspicious, but the majority avoided capture. The 35,000 Jews, other than a few transports sent to Sobibor and Majdanek in early 1943, were deported to Auschwitz, where they were invariably selected on arrival, with the able bodied registered and the unfit gassed. Total, 75,000 deported. Of the deportees, only 2,000 returned at the end of the war. The rest died, either by being gassed on arrival, dying in concentration camps or being selected inside Auschwitz after registration for gassing if they had become too sick or too weak to work any more.

That is the accepted account of the Holocaust in France, one of more than 20 countries affected by Nazi policies towards Jews.

In the same time-frame, the Nazis also captured 86,000 members of the French resistance who were then deported to concentration camps in Germany. They also executed about 20,000 people in France, of whom more than 1,000 were Jews. They further conscripted nearly 1 million French workers and transferred 1.6 million French prisoners of war for work in Germany.

None of these Frenchmen and Frenchwomen wanted to be deported, and we find that, non-Jews were deported at a rate up to 35 times the number that Jews were deported.

^
that's a mere 456 words, summarising data which is all over the internet and written up in massive detail in thousands of books. Yet you'll complain the answer was too long, or ignore it, or change the subject.

Thank you for that succinct summary. Well written (as always) and informative. It's certainly more helpful than linking to a random page over at AHF I hope everybody read and remembers that non-Jews were deported at a rate up to thirty five times the number that Jews were deported. I assume you're speaking of the French Jewish/non-Jewish population and not all European nations as a whole. Even if you're talking about only the French population, that statistic should lay rest that ridiculous deportation=murder canard we see every once in a while around here. Although I expect somebody will try and say that "deported" takes on a different meaning when it's the Jews we're talking about. sigh!
 
Wake up. Once the war started the Germans were concerned with winning the war. The elaborate fabrications and machinations used to shore up the numbers are as insane as the "Holocaust Myth" itself.

Ive noticed you make a lot of blanket claims you neglect to shore them up with actual facts or evidence. Why is that?
 
Look at the context of the word and you can figure out which definition to use. It's not that tough.

This is Clayton we're talking about. He has a rather flexible view of language. And logic. And history. The fact that he will not clarify what he means on a simple question of word definition does not auger well for his intellectual rigor on the "big picture" questions. He could've used the term in either of the two more common uses, or both.

Where did those bodies go?

No. Back up. What affirmative evidence do you have that indicates that 6 million people never existed? Why have you refused to read the Jaeger report? I just read it in less time than it took to write this post. What debunker in this thread or its predecessors has ever outlined the options for the fate of the Jews as "keep in contact with everyone they ever knew" vs. "killed by Nazis"? And why are you suddenly so reluctant to discuss the matter?
 
Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

I noticed that the Team Holocaust have sidestepped the video I linked too.

It seems that http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/ has been diddled with and is unavailable. I must have struck a serious nerve since it was available in June, 2012.
This is Google's cache of http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jun 30, 2012 09:59:15 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Denial/revisionism has an odd definition of lying. It includes disagreeing with their point of view.

I watched and commented on the video. It showed exactly how it was possible to gas people at Krema II, but cast doubt on the numbers it could cope with.

I am sorry the video has disappeared, I would check with your ISP.
 
Thank you for that succinct summary. Well written (as always) and informative. It's certainly more helpful than linking to a random page over at AHF I hope everybody read and remembers that non-Jews were deported at a rate up to thirty five times the number that Jews were deported. I assume you're speaking of the French Jewish/non-Jewish population and not all European nations as a whole. Even if you're talking about only the French population, that statistic should lay rest that ridiculous deportation=murder canard we see every once in a while around here. Although I expect somebody will try and say that "deported" takes on a different meaning when it's the Jews we're talking about. sigh!

Deportation does not equal murder. It is a component part of ethnic cleansing.
 
Holocaust deniers seem to be blind to the large scale human rights abuses in general. Except when the commies did it because that is useful to discredit them. Odd how that that never seems to work the same way for the likes of Remer and company.
 
Look at the context of the word and you can figure out which definition to use. It's not that tough.

When the poster in question has been known to use such constructs a "aver by omission", I would submit that asking cm to elaborate on what exactly *he* means in his usage is only prudent.
 
But if they provably spared certain Jews, that means, by definition, that they spared certain Jews. Literally no one here is accepting or proposing your straw man.



It has been explained. Several times. Are you ever going to get around to reading it? Or, heck, even admitting that you haven't and don't want to?



Evidently I missed it. Can you please provide a link to where the connection between the Jaeger Report and gas/plan/six is explained? Actually, because the skeptics are now saying that nobody ever claimed there was a plan to exterminate all the Jews, you just need to tie the Jaegar report to the gas chambers and the six million.
 
Where did those bodies go?
Depends on the camp in question: into the ground; into an oven and then the cremains into a river; into the ground, dug up, burned and the ashes reburied...

One thign we can be sure of in each case is that the bodies existed.
 
Wake up. Once the war started the Germans were concerned with winning the war. The elaborate fabrications and machinations used to shore up the numbers are as insane as the "Holocaust Myth" itself.

If they were so concerned with winning the war why did they:

A. Not gear up the economy for sustained production of necessary war materiel vice continuing production of luxury goods;
B. allocating resources to projects that are ineffecient (development of super heavy tanks when medium tank production was low);
C. Diverting resources to a multiple front war instead of concentrating on winning one fight first;
D. Inefficiently mobilizing their own national manpower resources (no attempt to conscript for industrial or agricultural work, no efficient use of the adult female population, duplicate military organizations, etc); and
E. interference by politicians at strategic, operational and tactical levels.

Why, you'd almost think that the myth of a super organized and efficient was just that - a myth. Maybe, just maybe the Germans had a racist demo gouge in charge, who put ideology above practicality, didn't know when not to interfere and unlike at least the Western Allies, had no one next to him that was willing to say, "No"
 
The *Final* solution was exactly that. They just hadn't gotten around to wrapping things up quite yet.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Every professional sports teams' plan is to win every game. That they do not do so doesn't change the fact that that is their plan.

Using what you are trying to pass off as "logic", Germany never had a plan to win the war in Europe. Trues or False?

I love how you guys will never answer a straight up yes/no, true/false question. Because I like watching you avoid intelligent debate like the plague so I'm going to try this again with different words: The description of historians claiming the Nazis wanted to kill all Jews is a simplification of the truth and is not accurate. Is that statement true or false?
 
Evidently I missed it. Can you please provide a link to where the connection between the Jaeger Report and gas/plan/six is explained? Actually, because the skeptics are now saying that nobody ever claimed there was a plan to exterminate all the Jews, you just need to tie the Jaegar report to the gas chambers and the six million.

But . . . you took a position on the Jaeger report and have been asked to explain and support it, whether or not it's relevant to your own personal view of things. You said that the Jaeger report dealt not with a series of extermination actions against Lithuanian Jews but with ethnic cleansing, or a rogue operation, or anti-partisan actions. Eh?

Also, the Holocaust is not viewed the way you define it, either in popular but serious literature or in specialist studies. Nick earlier quoted the Wikipedia definition as an example of a halfway decent, popular expression of what the Holocaust was:
The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[2] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "catastrophe"; Yiddish: חורבן, Churben or Hurban,[3] from the Hebrew for "destruction"), was the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler, throughout Nazi-occupied territory.[4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds perished.[5] In particular, over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' genocide of millions of people in other groups, including Romani, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin.[8] Using this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims is between 11 million and 17 million people.[9]

Nick's comments included:
So we have 'approximately' six million Jews, although Hilbergians estimate 5.1 million, as is discussed later in the entry. And we have a dispute between scholars over whether to include non-Jews or not, which would take the total all the way up to 17 million on some calculations.

The opening preamble here defines the Holocaust as a genocide, making it comparable to other mass murders also defined as genocides, and describes the event as "a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler, throughout Nazi-occupied territory".

There is nothing in this definition about a Plan, or Gas Chambers, or 100% extermination, but there is a clear statement that the Holocaust was a programme of systematic state-sponsored murder.

The statement 'by Nazi Germany' is inaccurate because certain Axis allies like Romania and Croatia also carried out the systematic state-sponsored murder of Jews independently. The statement 'throughout Nazi-occupied territory' is vague but relatively accurate, since the Nazis killed on the spot or deported Jews to their deaths from every territory that they occupied. They also killed Jews deported from territories not under their direct occupation (eg Bulgarian-occupied Greece and Yugoslavia).

So you've learned nothing in months. You just keep repeating nonsense and attributing to those with whom you disagree viewpoints they don't hold.

Here's another popular view of what the Holocaust consisted of, from the USHMM, which differs from your trio, by a long shot, again not reducing the Holocaust to your description of it (gas chambers + 6 million + master plan) - but highlighting open-air mobile killing operations as a part of the Holocaust:

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. "Holocaust" is a word of Greek origin meaning "sacrifice by fire." The Nazis, who came to power in Germany in January 1933, believed that Germans were "racially superior" and that the Jews, deemed "inferior," were an alien threat to the so-called German racial community. . . .

WHAT WAS THE HOLOCAUST? 


In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that Nazi Germany would occupy or influence during World War II. By 1945, the Germans and their collaborators killed nearly two out of every three European Jews as part of the "Final Solution," the Nazi policy to murder the Jews of Europe. Although Jews, whom the Nazis deemed a priority danger to Germany, were the primary victims of Nazi racism, other victims included some 200,000 Roma (Gypsies). At least 200,000 mentally or physically disabled patients, mainly Germans, living in institutional settings, were murdered in the so-called Euthanasia Program. . . .

ADMINISTRATION OF THE "FINAL SOLUTION" 
 

In the early years of the Nazi regime, the National Socialist government established concentration camps to detain real and imagined political and ideological opponents. Increasingly in the years before the outbreak of war, SS and police officials incarcerated Jews, Roma, and other victims of ethnic and racial hatred in these camps. To concentrate and monitor the Jewish population as well as to facilitate later deportation of the Jews, the Germans and their collaborators created ghettos, transit camps, and forced-labor camps for Jews during the war years. The German authorities also established numerous forced-labor camps, both in the so-called Greater German Reich and in German-occupied territory, for non-Jews whose labor the Germans sought to exploit.

Following the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) and, later, militarized battalions of Order Police officials, moved behind German lines to carry out mass-murder operations against Jews, Roma, and Soviet state and Communist Party officials. German SS and police units, supported by units of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS, murdered more than a million Jewish men, women, and children, and hundreds of thousands of others. Between 1941 and 1944, Nazi German authorities deported millions of Jews from Germany, from occupied territories, and from the countries of many of its Axis allies to ghettos and to killing centers, often called extermination camps, where they were murdered in specially developed gassing facilities.

THE END OF THE HOLOCAUST 
 

In the final months of the war, SS guards moved camp inmates by train or on forced marches, often called “death marches,” in an attempt to prevent the Allied liberation of large numbers of prisoners. As Allied forces moved across Europe in a series of offensives against Germany, they began to encounter and liberate concentration camp prisoners, as well as prisoners en route by forced march from one camp to another. The marches continued until May 7, 1945, the day the German armed forces surrendered unconditionally to the Allies. For the western Allies, World War II officially ended in Europe on the next day, May 8 (V-E Day), while Soviet forces announced their “Victory Day” on May 9, 1945. . . .

Further Reading

Bergen, Doris. War & Genocide: A Concise History of the Holocaust. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 2003


Dawidowicz, Lucy S. The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945. New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1975.

Gilbert, Martin. The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe During the Second World War. New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1986.

Gutman, Israel, editor. Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1990.

Hilberg, Raul. The Destruction of the European Jews. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2003.

Yahil, Leni. The Holocaust: The Fate of European Jewry, 1932-1945. New York: Oxford University Press, 1990.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005143
 
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I love how you guys will never answer a straight up yes/no, true/false question. Because I like watching you avoid intelligent debate like the plague so I'm going to try this again with different words: The description of historians claiming the Nazis wanted to kill all Jews is a simplification of the truth and is not accurate. Is that statement true or false?

How about you quote, in context, where you've read historians stating this case?

You have so many open tickets here that it is rather startling to hear you complain that others aren't hopping to their assignments. . . .
 
Why? Don't they control the entirely of the historical record, including witness testimony and physical evidence, to such a degree that people who never met have stories that corroborate each other? Posting on forums is small potatoes, relatively speaking.

It's so cute that you think that you're worth two hoots to your imaginary Jewish Overwatch Conspiracy. If you're that big a threat, why haven't you been killed and your body disposed of by now? It's not that hard, as long as lye is kosher.

If you want to talk about ignoring things, why haven't you discussed the flaws in your enraged Jews theory? If they all (except for POWs) would've been driven instantly to murderous rage, heedless of their own safety, when were they finding time to tell other Jews? I certainly pointed several flaws out before you started posting links to HDV despite, as you insist, not being a denier, and you never addressed those either. People have, in fact, already linked to rebuttals of said videos, and you handwaved them.

I discussed the enraged reality completely but you and Team Holocaust aren't reality centered.
 
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