General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[LemmyCaution]

I for one think that your descriptive of team Holocaust claiming the Nazis wanted to kill all Jews is a simplification of the truth and is not accurate.

I, for two, agree with you. Dogzilla and Mr Moore have for a long time here tried to sell a vision of reality in which goals do not evolve, tactics do not change, actions do not take time, alliances need not be formed and participants do not need to be engaged, communication does not take time and logistics do not cause require steps and stages, resistance and obstacles are not encountered, suprises do not occur, and now Jews never existed. It is beyond daft.

As to your post above, the National Socialist selection principle, derived from a corrupted version of Darwinism and applied using racial and crude biological-criminal criteria to the whole of society, is a key concept, IMHO. Jews were selected out, as were other groups (as in the T4 program, the Asocial Aktion, actions against Zigeuner) for elimination. Strategies to effect elimination were tried, experimented with, put into use in different times and places until, in the case of the Jews, an overall approach took hold and was agreed. The prototype for selection of the Jews is, of course, the ramp at Birkenau. But selection always took many forms, in different times and places, even as the overall strategy of the Final Solution was implemented: Jewish victims were selected out from camps in 14f13 and shipped to euthanasia centers for liquidation; in Warsaw, Jews were selected in situ with those chosen for death taken first to the Umschlagplatz and those for labor packed into workshop-camps in the reduced ghetto; within Germany the selection principle - on account of factors you mention - and France - as Nick explained - was implemented differently to its implementation in the East; at Birkenau most Jews were selected for the gas chambers or labor on arrival; within the camps, Jews who could not work due to weakness, age, or illness were taken from hospitals and work sites for execution; along the DG-IV, workers who could not keep up were pulled off construction jobs and shot behind buildings or in wooded areas; in Vilna successive selections reduced the Jewish population which was first jammed into two ghettos and, when a major selection took place in fall 1941, most of the Jews in the non-working ghetto were selected for Ponar and death by shooting; German Jews were mistakenly selected at Kovno in fall 1941 and shot, at a time before Himmler thought it opportune to be slaughtering Reich Jews; in Lodz the Eldest of the Jews was forced to carry out selections of the old, the infirm, and the young for shipment to Chelmno - and he explained his predicament and reasoning to the ghetto population; and so on.

 

[000063]

Ah, so they just made up close relatives, fathers, mothers, etc. ? How were the kids of the dead born, exactly ?

You are so desperate to deny the Holocaust that you will erase an entire people from history.

Hey, you know who else tried to do that ?

The secret Jewish Carpenters must've snuck into the house and added Anne Frank's attic, without anyone being detected. Miep Gies, Bep Voskuijl, and Johannes Kleiman were all merely given powerful Jewish hallucinogens and brainwashed.

The same basic idea would later be used on a larger scale with 9/11.

 

[000063]

It would be either the Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews or they did not want to kill all the Jews true dichotomy. Unfortunately for Team holocaust, the argument is that the Nazis wanted to kill all the Jews except for the Jews they didn't want to kill. But they wanted to kill all the Jews. Trying to make that argument is one of the reasons you work yourself into a dizzy playing whack-a-mole with the facts and why your narrative sounds more and more Ptolemaic with the extermination of the Jews at the center of the universe.

But if they provably spared certain Jews, that means, by definition, that they spared certain Jews. Literally no one here is accepting or proposing your straw man.

and that proves gas chambers or the mass graves at the AR camps how? Are you ever going to get around to explaining the relevance of Jaeger?

It has been explained. Several times. Are you ever going to get around to reading it? Or, heck, even admitting that you haven't and don't want to?

...
I don't think he's actually made any assertions about the report recently. The closest was the aforementioned fishing. I have no doubt that he will continue to not address and not read the report. Possibly trying to spin-off some minor aside into a whole new line of argument, possibly by using incredulity and no actual argument, Clayton style.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I, for two, agree with you. Dogzilla and Mr Moore have for a long time here tried to sell a vision of reality in which goals do not evolve, tactics do not change, actions do not take time, alliances need not be formed and participants do not need to be engaged, communication does not take time and logistics do not cause require steps and stages, resistance and obstacles are not encountered, suprises do not occur, and now Jews never existed. It is beyond daft.

As to your post above, the National Socialist selection principle, derived from a corrupted version of Darwinism and applied using racial and crude biological-criminal criteria to the whole of society, is a key concept, IMHO. Jews were selected out, as were other groups (as in the T4 program, the Asocial Aktion, actions against Zigeuner) for elimination. Strategies to effect elimination were tried, experimented with, put into use in different times and places until, in the case of the Jews, an overall approach took hold and was agreed. The prototype for selection of the Jews is, of course, the ramp at Birkenau. But selection always took many forms, in different times and places, even as the overall strategy of the Final Solution was implemented: Jewish victims were selected out from camps in 14f13 and shipped to euthanasia centers for liquidation; in Warsaw, Jews were selected in situ with those chosen for death taken first to the Umschlagplatz and those for labor packed into workshop-camps in the reduced ghetto; within Germany the selection principle - on account of factors you mention - and France - as Nick explained - was implemented differently to its implementation in the East; at Birkenau most Jews were selected for the gas chambers or labor on arrival; within the camps, Jews who could not work due to weakness, age, or illness were taken from hospitals and work sites for execution; along the DG-IV, workers who could not keep up were pulled off construction jobs and shot behind buildings or in wooded areas; in Vilna successive selections reduced the Jewish population which was first jammed into two ghettos and, when a major selection took place in fall 1941, most of the Jews in the non-working ghetto were selected for Ponar and death by shooting; German Jews were mistakenly selected at Kovno in fall 1941 and shot, at a time before Himmler thought it opportune to be slaughtering Reich Jews; in Lodz the Eldest of the Jews was forced to carry out selections of the old, the infirm, and the young for shipment to Chelmno - and he explained his predicament and reasoning to the ghetto population; and so on.

Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

I noticed that the Team Holocaust have sidestepped the video I linked too.

It seems that http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/ has been diddled with and is unavailable. I must have struck a serious nerve since it was available in June, 2012.
This is Google's cache of http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jun 30, 2012 09:59:15 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

 

[thedopefishlives]

Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

I noticed that the Team Holocaust have sidestepped the video I linked too.

It seems that http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/ has been diddled with and is unavailable. I must have struck a serious nerve since it was available in June, 2012.
This is Google's cache of http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jun 30, 2012 09:59:15 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Yes, Clayton, the Jooz found out about your expert debunking of the Holohoax and decided that they had to exercise their control of the Interwebs and take immediate action. You're on to them now.

 

[Cyrix686]

Just in case anyone missed Dogzilla's third way when discussing the mysterious disappearance of between 5 and 6 million Jews in Europe under Nazis, I'm afraid I feel duty bound to repost it for those who haven't yet considered this solution to the Final Solution:

DZ:

So there's the last scenario. This is the one that puts all the pieces of the puzzle together and, given the current state of knowledge, is the best:

3) Those people were never there.

 

[000063]

I don't find any authority in anything he Dogzilla writes either, he seems to be more interested in philosophy than in History.

He strikes me more as an art history major. Specifically, Dadaism.

...
^
that's a mere 456 words, summarising data which is all over the internet and written up in massive detail in thousands of books. Yet you'll complain the answer was too long, or ignore it, or change the subject.

I find it interesting that he proposed the same thing Doggie did, but he isn't actually responding to any of the discussion about it. From anyone.

If someone says that they want to own all the movies in the world on DVD, does that means that they don't really mean that or didn't complete their collection if they didn't succeed right away ?

And if they allegedly wanted to, say, conquer Europe, and they didn't manage to, would that mean they never really wanted to conquer the world?

Purely hypothetically, of course.

The reality of what was wanted and what happened is way more complicated than your very simple argument. ...

Oddly enough, this could apply to almost every single post Doggie makes.

 

[Cyrix686]

Have Jews - existent or non existent take your pick - taken down Clayton Moore's highly recommended scholarly videos?

 

[Belz...]

Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

Aside from continuing to label people in order to poison the well and call people liars while yourself lying, do you have so, you know, actual evidence ?

 

[000063]

Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

Why? Don't they control the entirely of the historical record, including witness testimony and physical evidence, to such a degree that people who never met have stories that corroborate each other? Posting on forums is small potatoes, relatively speaking.

I noticed that the Team Holocaust have sidestepped the video I linked too.

It seems that http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/ has been diddled with and is unavailable. I must have struck a serious nerve since it was available in June, 2012.
This is Google's cache of http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jun 30, 2012 09:59:15 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

It's so cute that you think that you're worth two hoots to your imaginary Jewish Overwatch Conspiracy. If you're that big a threat, why haven't you been killed and your body disposed of by now? It's not that hard, as long as lye is kosher.

If you want to talk about ignoring things, why haven't you discussed the flaws in your enraged Jews theory? If they all (except for POWs) would've been driven instantly to murderous rage, heedless of their own safety, when were they finding time to tell other Jews? I certainly pointed several flaws out before you started posting links to HDV despite, as you insist, not being a denier, and you never addressed those either. People have, in fact, already linked to rebuttals of said videos, and you handwaved them.

 

[Clayton Moore]

The reality of what was wanted and what happened is way more complicated than your very simple argument.

Hitler and other National Socialists made it clear before the War that they did not want Jews in Germany and they had some pretty crazy ideas about what to do, such as Madagascar.

Once the War starts the Nazis are now in a position to start killing Jews as well as creating ghettos, work camps and in some extreme exceptions, with Hitler's approval exempting some. Why was that? Well we have the answer in that who was Jewish needed defining so some would survive if they were considered not be Jewish after all. It was recognised that some Jews were useful and loyal to the Nazis so they could survive. It was known that not all German's are anti-semities so we have the Nazis being careful to treat some Jews with a bit more respect than others, such as WWI Iron Cross veterans. We know that some countries under Nazi control were more inclined to protect their Jews than others, so we have discrepancies there.

I for one think that your descriptive of team Holocaust claiming the Nazis wanted to kill all Jews is a simplification of the truth and is not accurate.

Wake up. Once the war started the Germans were concerned with winning the war. The elaborate fabrications and machinations used to shore up the numbers are as insane as the "Holocaust Myth" itself.

 

[000063]

Oh, look, it's absolutely nothing!

Funny how you posted your one-liner non-response after I pointed out that you were avoiding discussing the holes in your claims. Curious how you suddenly decided to respond to a post the one I responded to, instead of any of the responses to your post. Weird how you don't actually mention or respond to any of the claims under discussion.

 

[Dogzilla]

The reality of what was wanted and what happened is way more complicated than your very simple argument.

Hitler and other National Socialists made it clear before the War that they did not want Jews in Germany and they had some pretty crazy ideas about what to do, such as Madagascar.

Once the War starts the Nazis are now in a position to start killing Jews as well as creating ghettos, work camps and in some extreme exceptions, with Hitler's approval exempting some. Why was that? Well we have the answer in that who was Jewish needed defining so some would survive if they were considered not be Jewish after all. It was recognised that some Jews were useful and loyal to the Nazis so they could survive. It was known that not all German's are anti-semities so we have the Nazis being careful to treat some Jews with a bit more respect than others, such as WWI Iron Cross veterans. We know that some countries under Nazi control were more inclined to protect their Jews than others, so we have discrepancies there.

I for one think that your descriptive of team Holocaust claiming the Nazis wanted to kill all Jews is a simplification of the truth and is not accurate.

So the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was not a state sponsored plan to physically exterminate the Jews? True or False?

 

[TSR]

Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

Who is this "Team Holocaust" you keep whining about? Because the lies that have actually bee documented here are all yours...

I noticed that the Team Holocaust have sidestepped the video I linked too.

Speaking of which, there's another.

It seems that http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/ has been diddled with and is unavailable. I must have struck a serious nerve since it was available in June, 2012.

And is available as of a few moments ago.

Now, can we get back to covering some of your more interesting recent lise - like the whole 94% effective thing?

 

[TSR]

Wake up. Once the war started the Germans were concerned with winning the war. The elaborate fabrications and machinations used to shore up the numbers are as insane as the "Holocaust Myth" itself.

Except for the teeny tiny issue that you have yet to actually *demonstrate* any such fabrications or machinations, nor any shoring up of numbers.

 

[TSR]

So the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was not a state sponsored plan to physically exterminate the Jews? True or False?

The *Final* solution was exactly that. They just hadn't gotten around to wrapping things up quite yet.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Every professional sports teams' plan is to win every game. That they do not do so doesn't change the fact that that is their plan.

Using what you are trying to pass off as "logic", Germany never had a plan to win the war in Europe. True or False?

 

[Dogzilla]

You do understand that "staged" has at least three meanings in idiomatic American English, right?

"Staged" can mean "gathered prior to a movement."

"Staged" can also mean "faked up with paid actors."

(And "Staged" can also mean having stages, like a Saturn V stack, but that one is pretty unlikely in this context.)

Look at the context of the word and you can figure out which definition to use. It's not that tough.

 

[Dogzilla]

Hi Clayton. Now that you are reaching high school you are naturally asking grown ups all kinds of questions before you read your first book (not issued by DC Comics) Let us help you...

Treblinka II had 713,555 executed in it before 30Dec1942 on it's own! The Germans themselves, wrote this in the Hofle Telegram. You may even read the answer to your really stupid question......in a book.....or just Wikipedia if that's your top skill level goal...

Before Operation Reinhard, over half a million Jews had been killed by the Einsatzgruppen, mobile extermination units, in territories conquered by the German army. It became evident, however, that they could not handle the millions of Jews that they had concentrated in the ghettos of occupied countries. So Treblinka, along with the other Operation Reinhard camps, were especially designed for the rapid elimination of the Jews in ghettos

Hi again Clayton. Well as the Allies warned the nasty Germans to stop knocking off Jews in November 1942 or face war crime trials, you can guess that the Jewish people, were aware before that date. Considering this has been discusses in detail many times in this thread you may want to practice reading for a bit longer before attempting to read a whole book.

Where did those bodies go?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Your talent for failing to get the point never ceases to amaze me. Here is a rough summary of the 'conversation' as it has been repeated umpteen times since the summer of 2010 when you showed up here:

1. Accepted history: 5 to 6 million European Jews were murdered in a genocide by the Nazis and their allies by a combination of methods including gas chambers killing 2-3 million.

2. Dogzilla: no they weren't. Zisblatt blah blah there were no gas chambers.

3. Puzzled skeptic: so what happened to them then?

4. Dogzilla: I don't know.

5. Annoyed skeptic: sod off then.

As long as your answer in stage #4 is 'I don't know', then you have not laid a dent on stage #1, end of story.

Actually, IRL, as much as this forum is real life, we have a self-described skeptic posting these observations on the performance we've gotten from Dogzilla and Mr Moore:

I for one think that your descriptive of team Holocaust claiming the Nazis wanted to kill all Jews is a simplification of the truth and is not accurate.

Here we have two very unimpressive deniers.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Really? Team Holocaust just lies and lies and lies. It amazing that they can function outside of forums.

Explain one lie, Mr Moore. Prove a lie. You can't. So you will post one line quips and empty assertions. Still, I dare you. Try.

I noticed that the Team Holocaust have sidestepped the video I linked too.

You've been spamming that link, and your whining, for more than a week, yet . . . http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8400201&postcount=3031

It seems that http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/ has been diddled with and is unavailable. I must have struck a serious nerve since it was available in June, 2012.
This is Google's cache of http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jun 30, 2012 09:59:15 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.holocaustdenialvideos.com/

Cue "For What It's Worth" by Buffalo Springfield . . .