General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[000063]

http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/red-cross-expose-jewish-holocaust-hoax/
[qimg]http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg[/qimg]

So, yes.

LOL I guess that this is a tacit admission that Mr Moore feels that he's not clever enough to make up forgeries, edit quotations to suit his purpose, mischaracterize arguments when backed into a corner, or concoct creative diversionary scenarios the way LGR would do.
...

Seconded.

OK, it's been twenty four hours. The simple question "Does the Jaeger Report specify the killing of people not classified as Jews?" has been avoided by Lemmy, ANTPogo, and Nick Terry. I guess nobody else wants to try. It's funny how you people won't answer a simple yes/no question. It's OK. I understand. Holocaust facts must exist in the grey zone so you can wriggle out of them if they become untenable in the future. So I guess Lemmycaution's latest attempt at explaining how the Jaeger Report supports the Holy Trinity of the holocaust (six, plan, and/or gas) will die out again. Although I have faith it will be resurrected at some point in the future.

And for all this bluster, you don't make even the slightest indication that you plan to answer it, or that you even read the report.

You forgot my post, BTW.

...
If you have any point whatsoever to make based on information in the report, you would have made it by now instead of fishing.
...

 

[000063]

Literally EVERY one here is proposing that false dichotomy when they ask what happened to the Jews if they weren't killed. You're not asking if the Jews are alive or if they are dead. That would be a meaningless rhetorical question that would serve to establish the obvious. But it assumes a genuine dichotomy . You're not asking what happened to the Jews if they are not dead. If you asked that, and if we assume we would know what happened to them if they survived and we don't know what happened to them, your question would be a genuine dichotomy because if they're not alive, then they are dead.

But you're not asking meaningless questions of the obvious that assume a genuine dichotomy. You're asking what happened to six million Jews if they were not killed. That question sets up a false dichotomy: either we know what happened to the six million Jews or the six million Jews were killed. Not died. Not missing. Killed. As in someone or something caused their deaths.

No.

Wrong.

The possibilities as expressed are

1. Jews killed by Nazis.
2. Something else.

Not

1. We know what happened.
2. The Jews were killed.

You cannot answer the open-ended question of what "something else" could be, and are desperately trying to straw man.

Because the accepted historiography of the holocaust says that Nazi Germany wanted to exterminate the Jews and six million Jews did in fact die during the holocaust, your question about the fate of six million Jews if they were not killed is an even more specific false dichotomy: What happened to those six million Jews if they were not killed by Nazi Germany as part of the plan to exterminate the Jews?

How is that a false dichotomy? That's the exact same open-ended question.

Upthread I asked if the collateral damage that killed and displaced millions of non-Jews during the war might've affected the Jews as well. I asked if Jews might've been killed in reprisals. I asked if Jews had been immune to death by natural causes or simple old age. Everybody seems to believe that the war and natural causes might've killed Jews during the war but scoffed at the suggestion that any of the six million Jews were affected by these ordinary ravages of war or natural causes.

Lies. You made specific allegations about what happened to them, which you were unable to support.

So we have an unknown number of Jews who were not alive at the end of the war who died of natural causes or who were victims of World War II. Then we have the six million who didn't die of old age, disease, or any of the inconveniences caused by an armed conflict between the German Army and Russian Army passing through their neighborhood twice in three years or by the Americans or British passing through once. These six million Jews perished in the Shoah.

So, yes, you are making that false dichotomy that the only possible fates for six million Jews of Europe was 1) survive the war and maintain contact with everybody they knew before the war or 2) be murdered by the Nazis as part of their program to exterminate the Jews.

And, BTW, I have said more than once that I don't know what happened to them.[/QUOTE]

So the only possible fates for the Jews of Europe was 1) survive the war and maintain contact with everybody they knew before the war or 2) be murdered by the Nazis as part of their program to exterminate the Jews? Yes or No?

The answer, as you have been clearly told, is "no", and moreover, no one claimed such.

If you want to propose another fate for them, then propose it and justify it with documentation and other supporting evidence.

Of course, it would be rather difficult for Jews to keep in contact with those they knew before the war if many of them are dead. And it's not like personal contact is the only evidence of people's existence.

 

[000063]

Your talent for failing to get the point never ceases to amaze me. Here is a rough summary of the 'conversation' as it has been repeated umpteen times since the summer of 2010 when you showed up here:

1. Accepted history: 5 to 6 million European Jews were murdered in a genocide by the Nazis and their allies by a combination of methods including gas chambers killing 2-3 million.

2. Dogzilla: no they weren't. Zisblatt blah blah there were no gas chambers.

3. Puzzled skeptic: so what happened to them then?

4. Dogzilla: I don't know.

5. Annoyed skeptic: sod off then.

As long as your answer in stage #4 is 'I don't know', then you have not laid a dent on stage #1, end of story.

I probably should've just said something like that.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I would still like to know which engagements COULD have killed the Jews we have evidence for being in the Ghettos or the Camps. It is not as though we are discussing theoretical people who had the freedom to be in any handy battlefields.

 

[swright777]

No, the more likely explaination is a broken link, since in the post before this one, you were quoting from the page in question.

Knowing this, however, would have required reading for comprehension, or actually using the Search, both of which are apparently beyond your capabilities.

Denier "scholarship" in action inaction.

ftfy.

 

[Moss]

That is the problem with the alternative theories. They offer no trails to follow beyond the camps.. There is no record by any side about large numbers of Jews dying from disease or starvation inside or outside the camps beyond those recorded. But we can be reasonably sure that more than just those ended in the camps. That leaves us with something that has quite some input but no output. Which is somewhat odd for any system.
It's equally odd that we only have abandoned resettlement plans from the Nazis. There would be nothing conspicuous with documentation of actual resettlement actions and given their proposed scale it seems unlikely that we have no eyewitness testimony for them. That especially glaring if you consider that that would be a perfectly fine defense asset in the later trials.

 

[nomuse]

...
So, yes, you are making that false dichotomy that the only possible fates for six million Jews of Europe was 1) survive the war and maintain contact with everybody they knew before the war or 2) be murdered by the Nazis as part of their program to exterminate the Jews.

And, BTW, I have said more than once that I don't know what happened to them.

Six million people can vanish in Europe over the course of a few years? And vanish despite all the efforts of family and friends to track them down? This is hardly a few surly older brothers forgetting to send mom a birthday card!

Seriously -- if six million people just showed up at Ellis Island, it would be noticed. Western Europe is rather particular about boundaries and immigration and they don't just let millions of refugees take up new residence -- under new names! -- and not make note of the sudden influx.

Estimate are that there were some 9.5 million Jews in Europe before the war. 3 million in Poland alone. After the war, there were only 45,000 to be found in Poland. Where'd the other 2 and a half million Polish-speaking Jews wander off to? Did they bleach their hair and filter across the Swiss Alps? Perhaps they made it across occupied France, swam the English Channel, evaded the British coastal patrols, put on their best Fawlty Towers accents and pretended they'd been living in Loose Chippings all their lives!

 

[hurdygurdy]

1. Does anyone here agree that Spielberg should be stripped of the Oscar he won for The Last Days?

Nobody in the real world should agree, maybe in your parallel universe someone would agre. Spielberg didn't get any Oscar for The Last Days. The award went to the directors of the documentary, James Moll and Ken Lipper:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0174852/awards

Don't you get tired of being sistematically wrong?

 

[Dogzilla]

Dogzilla seems to have the kindergarten notion that we are asking him and his fellow obfuscators to find every Jew allegedly murdered. What he fails to understand is that we haven't found anyone alive after being deported to AR camps other than the handful of escapees and those who rebelled. What he is being asked is to locate someone believed to be gassed at, say, Treblinka. His assertion, if that is what he is asserting in this garbled, silly post, obscures the one essential fact - if the Jews were transitted elsewhere from the AR camps there would be a detailed narrative documenting their travels. To claim that no German staff, no civilian bystanders, and none of the deported where ever heard from on a single occasion over the past 70 years is mind bogglingly stupid. But that is where revisionism is. Good for a laugh.

But who would these missing Jews contact? Family? Friends? Neighbors? Casual acquaintances? People who they cared about and who presumably cared about them, no doubt. It does seem mindbogglingly stupid to think that none of the missing Jews would have reached out to those they left behind if they had survived. What is also mindbogglingly stupid is the notion that not one of those people whom these missing and presumed dead Jews would contact if they were alive, would reciprocate the concern. Yet there hasn't been a single occasion over the past 70 years of somebody wanting certainty and closure. Not one of the..how many is it? two million? three million? Whatever the death toll de jure at these AR camps is....Not one of those millions of Jews left somebody behind who is bothered by the remains of the righteous and the remains of the wicked lying in a common burial plot? Not one of them would prefer their loved one to be buried in Jerusalem to wait for the Messiah? Not one of them left behind somebody who is bothered by the tourists trodding upon the bone shards that litter the surface of these death camps? That too seems to be mindbogglingly stupid. Yet on not a single occasion over the past 70 years has anybody even tried looking beneath the sandy soil of the AR death camps for the mortal remains of a loved one--despite the knowledge that there are corpses down there in a wax fat transformation state that modern DNA technology could quite probably identify.

Both of these mindbogglingly stupid scenarios can be explained by the theory that every one of the Jews who were transported to an AR camp was a loner. Nobody knew them so if they were all killed at the camp, nobody would care enough about them to go looking for them. On the other hand, if they survived, and went somewhere else, nobody would hear from them because they were all loners.

This "loner theory" provides a plausible explanation for why we haven't heard from these missing Jews. However, besides being bat-diamond crazy, it doesn't tell us whether they survived or not. Lack of evidence is rarely good evidence of something so the fact that we don't have a detailed narrative documenting their travels beyond the AR camps is intriguing but ultimately meaningless for establishing that they were killed at the camps.

Fortunately for us, if the accepted narrative is true, there would be definitive physical evidence that hundreds of thousands of people were buried at these sites that we could still find today. It might even be possible to do so without disturbing the ground. If non-invasive procedures won't give us the definitive answers, then shovels will.

If there's any squawking about "religious objections" or "desecrating," then we can just assume that nobody is buried there and call it a day. Because if somebody accuses somebody else of mass murder but then says that they can't prove it because their imaginary friend won't let them dig a hole, we can just pat them on the head, smile, and walk away.

 

[TSR]

What is also mindbogglingly stupid is the notion that not one of those people whom these missing and presumed dead Jews would contact if they were alive, would reciprocate the concern. Yet there hasn't been a single occasion over the past 70 years of somebody wanting certainty and closure.

Yeah, since the ITS at Bar Arolsen have had no one, no one at all contact them for assistance in locating a victim of the Holocaust

They've been sitting over there, twiddling their thumbs for 70 years now...

 

[Nessie]

But who would these missing Jews contact? Family? Friends? Neighbors? Casual acquaintances? People who they cared about and who presumably cared about them, no doubt. It does seem mindbogglingly stupid to think that none of the missing Jews would have reached out to those they left behind if they had survived. What is also mindbogglingly stupid is the notion that not one of those people whom these missing and presumed dead Jews would contact if they were alive, would reciprocate the concern. Yet there hasn't been a single occasion over the past 70 years of somebody wanting certainty and closure. Not one of the..how many is it? two million? three million? Whatever the death toll de jure at these AR camps is....Not one of those millions of Jews left somebody behind who is bothered by the remains of the righteous and the remains of the wicked lying in a common burial plot? Not one of them would prefer their loved one to be buried in Jerusalem to wait for the Messiah? Not one of them left behind somebody who is bothered by the tourists trodding upon the bone shards that litter the surface of these death camps? That too seems to be mindbogglingly stupid. Yet on not a single occasion over the past 70 years has anybody even tried looking beneath the sandy soil of the AR death camps for the mortal remains of a loved one--despite the knowledge that there are corpses down there in a wax fat transformation state that modern DNA technology could quite probably identify.

Both of these mindbogglingly stupid scenarios can be explained by the theory that every one of the Jews who were transported to an AR camp was a loner. Nobody knew them so if they were all killed at the camp, nobody would care enough about them to go looking for them. On the other hand, if they survived, and went somewhere else, nobody would hear from them because they were all loners.

This "loner theory" provides a plausible explanation for why we haven't heard from these missing Jews. However, besides being bat-diamond crazy, it doesn't tell us whether they survived or not. Lack of evidence is rarely good evidence of something so the fact that we don't have a detailed narrative documenting their travels beyond the AR camps is intriguing but ultimately meaningless for establishing that they were killed at the camps.

Fortunately for us, if the accepted narrative is true, there would be definitive physical evidence that hundreds of thousands of people were buried at these sites that we could still find today. It might even be possible to do so without disturbing the ground. If non-invasive procedures won't give us the definitive answers, then shovels will.

If there's any squawking about "religious objections" or "desecrating," then we can just assume that nobody is buried there and call it a day. Because if somebody accuses somebody else of mass murder but then says that they can't prove it because their imaginary friend won't let them dig a hole, we can just pat them on the head, smile, and walk away.

Loner theory That is seriously clutching at straws.

 

[LemmyCaution]

But who would these missing Jews contact? < snip >

He must think that blowing more and more smoke will somehow confuse someone reading this board. All to avoid having a meaningful discussion.

A number of times Dogzilla and other deniers here have been asked to describe for us the fates of Jews from 5 cities in Europe: Vilna, Warsaw, Lodz, Riga, and Kiev, as here just a few days ago http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8412211&postcount=3501.

Dogzilla doesn't even bother saying he doesn't know - he says nothing. Here is a chance for him to engage in a specific review of whatever he wishes: collateral damage and cross fire, German bombings, partisan engagements, forensics, a Hitler order and master plan, natural deaths, flight eastward, etc. Instead of offering up his explanation of what happened and where historians have gotten it wrong, Dogzilla stays silent on these cases - and posts general blether and meaningless mindboggingly stupid strawmen.

The 403d Security Division recorded 80,000 Jews living in Vilna when the German occupied the city, probably an overestimate by 10,000+, but a start. A January 1942 registration of Jews in Warsaw ghetto put their number at 368,902, a figure corresponding to estimates made by Jewish relief organizations in early 1942 (these estimates don't count any Jews in hiding on the Aryan side). Lodz ghetto housed about 160,000 Jews, to which were added about 20,000 from the Reich, Austria, and the Protectorate in late 1941 and 1942 and 20,000 from the Warthegau (also 5,000 Zigeuner were shipped to Lodz). In Riga, on the eve of the war, there were an estimated 40,000 Jews; Riga, like Lodz, saw Jewish transports from the Greater Reich during winter 1941-1942 - I believe about 20,000. According to OSR 97, there were 150,000 Jews living in Kiev in September 1941.

So in these 5 cities there were approximately 840,000 Jews living at the time of the German occupation, give or take. 840,000 people: a large enough number, from just these 5 places, that their whereabouts need explanation, especially considering that in each of these cities, by war's end, the large pre-war Jewish population was simply gone - a demographic gap of very large proportions.

Unlike Dogzilla and the other deniers on this thread, historians have considered it their responsibility to account for what happened to the Jews in these cities. So, historians have worked out detailed answers to the question of what became of these Jews, identifying German actions, locating killing sites, taking into account factors like flight and the impact of the war, and so on.

Dogzilla takes the negationist course, remaining satisfied with his smug certainty that all the sources used by historians are in error or suspect and then offers up the genius insight that, despite the variety and multiplicity of sources,

And, BTW, I have said more than once that I don't know what happened to them

or simply ignores the question. Further, he makes up total crap, ignoring the investigations of Kola, Lukaszkiewicz, and others of AR sites and the archaeology of Chelmno, so he can write a blatant untruth,

on not a single occasion over the past 70 years has anybody even tried looking beneath the sandy soil of the AR death camps for the mortal remains

of the Jews buried there.

What Dogzilla also ignores, in all this, with his sarcastic stupidity about relatives not searching for loved ones beneath the soil, is that only for him and a handful of crackpots is there an open question about what happened to two out of three of Europe's Jews during World War II.

At any rate, Dogzilla has said that he doesn't know, and IIRC earlier he said that he didn't care, and it shows.

 

[Multivac]

I think it is significant evidence for the Holocaust that Hitler's approval was needed to save a Jew.

That is a very good point. If there was no policy ok killing Jews, nobody would need Hitler's signature to stop a Jew from being killed.

 

[Multivac]

Thankyou. This single quote tells me everything I need to know about your attitude to the millions who died at the hands of the nazis during WW2.

 

[Belz...]

But who would these missing Jews contact? Family? Friends? Neighbors? Casual acquaintances? People who they cared about and who presumably cared about them, no doubt. It does seem mindbogglingly stupid to think that none of the missing Jews would have reached out to those they left behind if they had survived. What is also mindbogglingly stupid is the notion that not one of those people whom these missing and presumed dead Jews would contact if they were alive, would reciprocate the concern.

That... actually doesn't help your case.

 

[000063]

Six million people can vanish in Europe over the course of a few years? And vanish despite all the efforts of family and friends to track them down? This is hardly a few surly older brothers forgetting to send mom a birthday card!

Seriously -- if six million people just showed up at Ellis Island, it would be noticed. Western Europe is rather particular about boundaries and immigration and they don't just let millions of refugees take up new residence -- under new names! -- and not make note of the sudden influx.

Estimate are that there were some 9.5 million Jews in Europe before the war. 3 million in Poland alone. After the war, there were only 45,000 to be found in Poland. Where'd the other 2 and a half million Polish-speaking Jews wander off to? Did they bleach their hair and filter across the Swiss Alps? Perhaps they made it across occupied France, swam the English Channel, evaded the British coastal patrols, put on their best Fawlty Towers accents and pretended they'd been living in Loose Chippings all their lives!

This is actually more plausible than many theories presented here.

 

[000063]

And Doggie's still not addressing the fact that he hasn't and will not read the Jaeger report, and has been desperately trying to get someone to tell him what it said for some time now.

It's some kind of advanced trolling; he can't even quote-mine; he's trying to get someone else to quote-mine for him.

Let me lay out the timeline.

1. Doggie proposes X.
2. Refuted using detailed information from the Jaeger report.
3. Responds with a one-liner question that doesn't actually respond to anything in the post other than the fact that it mentions the report.
4. Tries to change the subject with increasingly verbose posts about Y, doesn't discuss that he was wrong about X.

He is now fractally wrong. When proven wrong about something, he merely double's down, defending it with another wrong claim. It's a tapestry of wrong.

I love that he thinks "I don't have the answer" is a BTW, not an answer.

 

[LemmyCaution]

This is actually more plausible than many theories presented here.

Have any theories been presented here? All I've read is Dogzilla saying he doesn't know or care (and throwing in some distractors without committing to any of them) and Mr Moore's persistent incredulity ranging from forest fire fighting to labor needs to whether any deportations took place to the question of Jewish resistance - without a shred of coherence. Actually, we've been at pains to get a theory out of these guys!

 

[LSSBB]

Have any theories been presented here? All I've read is Dogzilla saying he doesn't know or care (and throwing in some distractors without committing to any of them) and Mr Moore's persistent incredulity ranging from forest fire fighting to labor needs to whether any deportations took place to the question of Jewish resistance - without a shred of coherence. Actually, we've been at pains to get a theory out of these guys!

It's just like the Truther strategy. They got Nothing, so they try to invalidate the Something to level the playing field. At the end of the day, they still got Nothing, but they were able to drag the argument out another day.

 

[000063]

Have any theories been presented here? All I've read is Dogzilla saying he doesn't know or care (and throwing in some distractors without committing to any of them) and Mr Moore's persistent incredulity ranging from forest fire fighting to labor needs to whether any deportations took place to the question of Jewish resistance - without a shred of coherence. Actually, we've been at pains to get a theory out of these guys!

I was thinking about Clay's Enraged Jews nonsense. And Clay's 3 million fabricated Jews nonsense. And Doggie's 6 million displaced Jews nonsense. And...