There was a Conspiracy to mislead US citizens into war with Afghanistan and Iraq

[kookbreaker]

And the Japanese intended to sacrifice their carriers at Midway for... something... resulting in the eventual loss of their empire and getting nuked.

According to Dave Barry, is was a genius plan to eventually dominate the electronics and automobile markets!

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

No victory = unable to secure the pipeline route = no pipe line.

So the plan was to fail to invade Afghanistan in order to avoid building a pipeline?

Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

 

[ConspiracyKiller]

So when you said

You either meant what you said, in which case you believe that Bush set things up to fail, or you are really, really, really, bad at sarcasm and probably shouldn't try it any more.

Either way we can see that when you get away from your C&P you get even worse at this debate thing.

Well I guess I'm bad at sarcasm because I thought it was obvious.

So I will just make it clear:
I do not think the neocons intentionally wanted to lose the war. They actually thought that they would easily achieve success in Afghanistan and would quickly secure the TAPI pipeline route.

Just because their plan failed does not mean that they did not have a plan.

Sword_Of_Truth was trying to imply that if there is no pipe line then there was no plan but that is as absurd as saying if there was no victory then there was no plan for victory.

 

[BCR]

I hate to break it to you, but there have been a number of pipeline schemes in play over the past few decades. During the Clinton administration there were a number of such schemes in play across Central Asia which the CIA and State Department supported. Russia/Iran played a significant covert role as well in attempting to block them. I'm sure the same thing holds today.

However, before accusing someone of mass murder I should think a little hard evidence, not speculation is in order.

 

[ConspiracyKiller]

So the plan was to fail to invade Afghanistan in order to avoid building a pipeline?

Do you understand how stupid that sounds?

That is not what I'm saying at all.

The neocons thought victory was going to be easy because the hillbilly Taliban were out numbered and out gunned and had only old worthless cold war equipment and no access to the sophisticated military equipment necessary to effectively resist the worlds greatest empire.

Yet despite the overwhelming odds the Taliban has managed to UNEXPECTEDLY achieve victory and therefore the US plans have failed but that doesn't mean that the US geopolitical strategy for Afghanistan did not exist.

When Obama and the generals knew the war was lost Obama hoped that the surge would help the US negotiate the best price possible with the Taliban for the security of the TAPI pipe line while the US agrees to draw down its troops with an agreement that it will continue to maintain the basses that are COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to the route of the pipeline and placed EXACTLY where the pumping stations are going up with only minimal forces, mostly advisers, to train and facilitate thus keeping Bush’s original goal of securing the TAPI pipe line in place while claiming the war is over.

It was thought that 11 years of costly war had to be at least worth something and was able to achieve something else besides more enemies and more hatred of the US.

Report describes “unprecedented interest” by Afghans, including members of the Afghan government to join the Taliban.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16821218

 

[twinstead]

So the "neocons" (your ideology is showing, by the way) underestimated the Taliban. Obviously since no armed force has ever been underestimated in the history of the Earth, it can only mean that it was done on purpose.

I'm convinced.

 

[kookbreaker]

This still makes no sense.

You're making the assumption that this is all for a pipeline that has little benefit to the USA. You base this on your own false assumption that making plans for something is the same as deciding on it as a course of action.

Your argument is long on text, short on logic.

 

[ConspiracyKiller]

I hate to break it to you, but there have been a number of pipeline schemes in play over the past few decades. During the Clinton administration there were a number of such schemes in play across Central Asia which the CIA and State Department supported. Russia/Iran played a significant covert role as well in attempting to block them. I'm sure the same thing holds today.

However, before accusing someone of mass murder I should think a little hard evidence, not speculation is in order.

I did not accuse any one of committing an act of mass murder in order to achieve the US geo-political goals in Afghanistan.

If by mass murder you mean a war of aggression as defined at Nuremburg after WWII which says a war of aggression is “essentially an evil thing…to initiate a war of aggression…is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.”

Then yes the Neocons committed a war of agession in order to achieve their geo-political goals in Afghanistan.

But the only way to commit such an evil act is to violate the United States formulated provision which says that from now on, no nation can use armed force without the permission of the U.N. Security Council.

So the US would have to present evidence that The Taliban Government and the Afghan people attacked America and were involved in the 9/11 attacks.

But NONE of the Taliban were involved in the 9/11 attacks and because the 9/11 plans were made in Germany and because NO Taliban were involved in the attack. Even if Bush would have managed to kill every single Taliban in an invasion of Afghanistan before 9/11, the 9/11 attacks would have STILL happened.


That’s because NONE of the Taliban had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban are NOT Al Qaeda.

Breach of rule 4 removed.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[BCR]

This still makes no sense.

You're making the assumption that this is all for a pipeline that has little benefit to the USA. You base this on your own false assumption that making plans for something is the same as deciding on it as a course of action.

Your argument is long on text, short on logic.

It was an opening to bash the Bush administration while ignoring the fact that the Clinton administration made pipelines the centerpiece of their Central Asian policy. One could make the case using this "logic" that Clinton set up the Taliban for Bush, Bush let them survive for Obama, and now Obama is allowing them to survive for?????

This is just another Bush-bashing thread IMHO.

 

[Travis]

No, this is a logic bashing thread.

He seems to think the war in Afghanistan is a war of aggression. All I can do is shake my head.

 

[kookbreaker]

That’s because NONE of the Taliban had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban are NOT Al Qaeda.

Yeah. We know. The Taliban didn't make the attacks. They just made minimal efforts to secure and expatriate those who were responsible and handed out excuse by the dozen. They did waffle and dither and make secondary offerings like Hitler's aides did when the T-34's were rolling over the streets of Berlin. We got tired of that reeeeal fast.

 

[BCR]

No, this is a logic bashing thread.

Okay, a Bush-logic bashing thread then

 

[BStrong]

All CK needs is directions to the proper authorities to present this most important case.

http://www.un.org/en/

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

the basses

Afghanistan is landlocked, it has no basses.

that are COMPLETELY IDENTICAL to the route of the pipeline

What pipeline route? Where has it been laid out, please show us.

and placed EXACTLY where the pumping stations are going up

The pumping stations are going up, are they?

Could you please show us these pumping stations?

And could you please explain to us why a Turkmenistan to India pipeline is supposed to be so bloody important to the US?

Or do you think that the pipeline is really Turkmenistan to Indianna?

 

[ConspiracyKiller]

This still makes no sense.

You're making the assumption that this is all for a pipeline that has little benefit to the USA. You base this on your own false assumption that making plans for something is the same as deciding on it as a course of action.

Your argument is long on text, short on logic.

If the TAPI pipeline, according to you, is of no interest or little benefit to the US then tell me why the US JUST RECENTLY paid out vast sums of money to secure the TAPI pipeline deal.

Breach of rule 4 removed.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The Indian government said in a statement on May 17 that the pipeline would be operational in 2018. India and Pakistan would each get 38 million cubic metres per day (mcmd) of gas, while the remaining 14 mcmd would be supplied to Afghanistan, it said.

Wait, wait, wait... you're saying we started a war with one country because they were sheltering Osama Bin Laden in order to build a pipeline to carry natural gas to another country that was sheltering Osama Bin Laden?

The interests stated in documents and press releases and 'think tank' publications show the war is clearly related to the TAPI Pipeline.

I don't think that the think tanks think what you think that they are thinking.

 

[ConspiracyKiller]

Afghanistan is landlocked, it has no basses.

What pipeline route? Where has it been laid out, please show us.

The pumping stations are going up, are they?

Could you please show us these pumping stations?

And could you please explain to us why a Turkmenistan to India pipeline is supposed to be so bloody important to the US?

Or do you think that the pipeline is really Turkmenistan to Indianna?

Uri Averny, a former member of the Israeli Knesset, writing in the daily Ma'ariv in Israel which overlay-ed a map of US bases with a map of the TAPI pipeline wrote; "If one looks at the map of the big American bases created for the war in Afghanistan, one is struck by the fact that they are completely identical to the route of the projected oil pipelines to the Indian Ocean,"

But because it was written by a Jew who was a former member of the Israeli Knesset, writing in the daily Ma'ariv some people will dismiss it as some evil Jew who was a former member of an evil Jewish organization that wrote an article of lies in an evil Jewish news paper so as to trick the American people.

I hope you are not one of those people. But if you wait tell this evening when I have time to get my other laptop I will post both maps for you.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I hope you are not one of those people. But if you wait tell this evening when I have time to get my other laptop I will post both maps for you.

Post proof of where they came from too.

Cuz otherwise it's just some guy drawing a line through a bunch of US bases.

 

[kookbreaker]

If the TAPI pipeline, according to you, is of no interest or little benefit to the US then tell me why the US JUST RECENTLY paid out vast sums of money to secure the TAPI pipeline deal.

Recently reported in ISLAMABAD: “The US has made a generous offer to finance the multibillion-dollar Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) gas pipeline, an implicit gesture to lure Pakistan away from the Iran-Pakistan (IP) gas pipeline deal….Sources inform The Express Tribune that the Export-Import Bank (EIB) of the United States as well as the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), an “independent” US agency, have offered Pakistan financing for TAPI”

Interesting that you have no link for this one. What is Islamabad? It is a city but is it also a magazine or something?

March 24 2012: “A couple of major US oil companies are interested,” said Daniel Stein, senior advisor to the special envoy for Eurasian Energy in the United States. “We would like to see a US company involved at some point in TAPI.” He declined to name the companies. TAPI is considered to be consistent with US’s DECLARED POLICY OF LINKING CENTRAL AND SOUTH ASIA AND DIVERSIFYING EXPORTROUTES FOR TURKMEN GAS” http://tribune.com.pk/story/354205/tapi-pipeline-two-major-us-oil-companies-interested/

While this one merely lists a couple of companies as 'interested'. You'd think they'd be all over it by your scenario.

<snip>

 

[ConspiracyKiller]

Interesting that you have no link for this one. What is Islamabad? It is a city but is it also a magazine or something?

While this one merely lists a couple of companies as 'interested'. You'd think they'd be all over it by your scenario.

<snip>

Here is the link bellow which proves the US is currently interested and believes the pipeline will benefit US interest. If you want me to post more links so you can get updated on the latest deals regarding the US shoveling money for the pipeline let me know.

“Export-Import Bank (EIB) of the United States as well as the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), an “independent” US agency, have offered Pakistan financing for TAPI.”
The US has made a generous offer to finance the multibillion-dollar Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India (TAPI) gas pipeline, an implicit gesture to lure Pakistan away from the Iran-Pakistan (IP) gas pipeline deal.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/308650/wielding-soft-power-us-offers-to-finance-tapi-gas-pipeline/