General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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With the holocaust, the defense destroys the evidence of somebody like Irene Zisblatt. So she can't be used as evidence. The defense moves on to the next witness.

Of course, Zisblatt never having been mentioned, let alone presented as a witness, by the prosecution, judge and jury shake their heads in astonishment at the antics of the defense. And wait for the defense actually to deal with evidence and witnesses entered.
 
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nomuse:

They get to cast the Holocaust as a grand lie by those despicable Jews, a ploy for sympathy by those grasping Jews, and a play for money and power by....well, you get the picture! And also a demonstration of "their" control over the media, over the sciences, over whatever grand conspiracy of taking-my-hard-earned-money-from-me the particular antisemite adheres to.


It was said earlier that David Irving's political ideology had made his History books worthless and suspect and had cancelled out any practical use they might once have had as a tool for the historian to understanding the period.

A question of priorities then? Any Revisionist present here who holds an ardent desire for National Socialism or, is a loyal National Socialist first and foremost and an historian second has surely (just as David Irving did) forfeited in most reasonable people's opinions any right they had whatsoever to be taken seriously.

Nizkor website:

"The real purpose of holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again."

Who am I to disagree, by their own deeds and words you know them.
 
It is not faulty reasoning at all. It is based on the 'no holes, no Holocaust' way of thinking by revisionist/deniers. Further evidence of that way of thinking is their criticism of Zisblatt which shows one supposed witness has been lying or Clayton Moore's much linked to video on the way Krema II was operated. Then there is the latching onto how some Jews were not treated as badly as others. All you do is find small examples of where actions by the Nazis are contrary to the majority of actions against the Jews and then revert back to the suggestion of 'no holes, no Holocaust'.

Revisionist/deniers produce their doubts as evidence, which it is not. The attempt to discredit all evidence with a small amount of evidence is a see through fail.

I also asked the question as a lead onto the question you have dodged which is about what would you call the Holocaust? What did happen to the Jews during WWII? Is it not best described as a genocide?

So what about video's explanation of the oven roadblock and the dragging of bodies roadblock that would have prevented even daily gassings of 2000 Jewish people?

Team Holocaust has been avoiding it like a marathon on an 109 degree day.
So has Terry.
 
If they weren't, perhaps not? So truth can be antisemitic?

Can we assume then, that you concede the other points.

And yes, truth can be distorted in the service of hate.

Example: There exists a work call "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion".

That existence is truth.

That fact is then distorted in the service of anti-semitism.

Zisblatt apparently lied about her personal experiences.

That is a fact.

That fact is then distorted in the service of anti-semitism.

The plaque at Auschwitz carried for several years (and for reasons unrelated to the historicity of the Holocaust) an incorrect number.

That fact is then distorted in the service of anti-semitism.
 
So what about video's explanation of the oven roadblock and the dragging of bodies roadblock that would have prevented even daily gassings of 2000 Jewish people?

Team Holocaust has been avoiding it like a marathon on an 109 degree day.
So has Terry.

... which is why there have been several books published by *actual* historians which address these issue -- something that has been pointed out to you, but which you refuse to investigate.

Here's a link to a good starting point regarding body disposal. If you have reasonable questions after reading this, let us know.

This explicitly addresses your dragging whines.

Finally, get thee to a library and read a history book or two so you don't appear so ignorant about the history you are so rabid to deny.
 
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Can we assume then, that you concede the other points.

And yes, truth can be distorted in the service of hate.

Example: There exists a work call "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion".

That existence is truth.

That fact is then distorted in the service of anti-semitism.

Zisblatt apparently lied about her personal experiences.

That is a fact.

That fact is then distorted in the service of anti-semitism.

The plaque at Auschwitz carried for several years (and for reasons unrelated to the historicity of the Holocaust) an incorrect number.

That fact is then distorted in the service of anti-semitism.

Yet Zisblatt has had the blessing of the Holocaust community to continue to speak to school children and at other speaking engagements long after it was known she was lying. And there have never, that I am aware of, been any retractions or apologies from the networks of her many TV appearances.


Has the NYT exposed her big time as a fraud?
 
Yet Zisblatt has had the blessing of the Holocaust community to continue to speak to school children and at other speaking engagements long after it was known she was lying.
Really? Where is this "blessing" documented?
And there have never, that I am aware of, been any retractions or apologies from the networks of her many TV appearances.
Nor have there been any for Sylvia Brown.

Your point?
Has the NYT exposed her big time as a fraud?
Not that I am aware of, but why should they have? Have they endorsed her story as truth?

And the question you keep running from: Why does it matter so much to you that there are liars who happen to be Jews, while liars like Irving still tour the country, sponging off of deniers like you and not reporting any income (and so not paying tax on that income)?

What do *either* of these have to do with historicity of the Holocaust?
 
This explicitly addresses your dragging whines.

The removal of bodies from the gas chambers and their transports in trolleys to the ditches was also a slow process, and it delayed the arrival of new victims to the gas chambers. The hand pushed trolley used to transfer the corpses to the pits would often derail and overturn, and it finally was decided to dispense with it altogether. Instead, the prisoners dragged the bodies by their feet to the ditches.

What bunch of nonsense.
What’s the poet trying to tell us here? That the perfectly efficient Germans of his fantasies would not have tried this method because they would have realized, without even trying, that fires caused by incendiary bombs might have undesirable collateral effects offsetting their effectiveness as a body disposal method? Such reasoning fails to take into account the situation that led to this method being attempted. Tens of thousands of bodies lying in mass graves at Chelmno had to be removed, and burning them in huge fires seemed the best way to do that, so the question was how to make such huge fires, preferably with the least effort and at the lowest cost. Incendiary bombs were a simple and effective way to start large fires at high temperatures, which were just what was needed to burn all those bodies in a speedy and thorough manner. Incendiary bombs were something that could be handled by the small staff of SS-men assigned to the task (see above quote from Arad), whereas building fireplaces to cremate the corpses (the solution eventually adopted), and transferring the corpses from the graves onto these fireplaces, required time and a workforce of permanent camp inmates. And the SS-officer in charge of burning the bodies, Paul Blobel, was not at the same time a forest-keeper, and may only have started caring about environmental side effects of his work after he or his superiors were faced with complaints about forest fires caused by the body-burning. Such complaints from the local forest administration and/or other entities were probably what caused this method to be abandoned and a burning method perhaps less comfortable but more sparing on the environment to be adopted. What's the implausible part supposed to be?

Forest fires?

In the 1940s how do you stop forest fires from burning everything in sight including the camps?
 
Yet Zisblatt has had the blessing of the Holocaust community
And which bodies represent such a community? Which bodies, institutions or acadmeics have supported this person?

to continue to speak to school children and at other speaking engagements long after it was known she was lying.

And whom from the above bodies arranged these engagements?

And there have never, that I am aware of, been any retractions or apologies from the networks of her many TV appearances.
Which appearances? Was she engaged to tell her story? Was her opinion treated as that of the networks, or one of a spectrum they included for ballance?


Has the NYT exposed her big time as a fraud?

And what does media-disinterest prove? If nobody is bothered about her claims, and they are more interested in better sources, what would be the point?
 
Yet Zisblatt has had the blessing of the Holocaust community

Which community is that?

Zisblatt is a total non-person in Britain, Germany, France, Poland and Israel. Her book hasn't been published outside of the US, she hasn't spoken to any school outside of the US.

Has Zisblatt been given the blessing of USHMM or Yad Vashem? If you believe she has, please prove it.
 
Here's a link to a good starting point regarding body disposal. If you have reasonable questions after reading this, let us know.

Tauber also noted that under the right conditions it was possible to burn eight bodies simultaneously in an oven. He mentions the case when there were eight emaciated corpses. He also states that when children were incinerated the Sonderkommando would burn the bodies of five or six children with two adults. [167] He even described how the children's bodies were placed in the furnace to prevent their falling into the ash bin. [168]

Tauber also addresses the issue of fuel usage in the burning of the bodies. His testimony is important in this respect because he shows that it was an issue and the authorities had developed methods of dealing with it. He explains:

As I have already said, there were five furnaces in Crematorium II, each with three muffles for cremating the corpses and heated by two coke-fired hearths. The fire flues of these hearths came out above the ash [collection] boxes of the two side muffles. Thus the flames went first round the two side muffles then heated the center one, from where the combustion gasses were led out below the furnace, between the two firing hearths. Thanks to this arrangement, the incineration process for the corpses in the side muffles differed from that of the center muffle. The corpses of ... wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely the corpses of people gassed on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the center muffle. During the incineration of such corpses, we used the coke only to light the fire of the furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned of their own accord thanks to the combustion of the body fat. [169]

It's just freaky stupid nonsense.
 
What bunch of nonsense.

Forest fires?

In the 1940s how do you stop forest fires from burning everything in sight including the camps?

Not Smokey the Bear for sure. In the US it was the introduction of smoke jumpers. Lookout towers to spot fires. Osborne Fire Finder devices. High capacity water pumps. Portable pumps installed on pickup trucks, then tank trucks. Routt pump accessory packs. Fire breaks. Fibrous hoses. Other techniques. Water mainly.

Or didn't you know they had water, airplanes & parachutes, pumps, and stuff in the '40s?
 
What bunch of nonsense.
What a cogent, evidence based rebuttal. I'm convinced.
Forest fires?

In the 1940s how do you stop forest fires from burning everything in sight including the camps?
Because everyone knows every forest fire in the 40's resulted in complete devastation to everything on the Continent, because they would simply keep spreading and spreading until everything was consumed...

After all, sodium calcium borate had not yet been discovered, and even if it had, there were no aircraft to deliver it -- and there certainly were no sources of water on the ground, nor had anyone thought to invent the water pump yet :rolleyes:
 
What bunch of nonsense.


Forest fires?

In the 1940s how do you stop forest fires from burning everything in sight including the camps?

Same way it was done in Canada at that time - create firebreaks across the path of the fire and let it burn out on its own. You know that forest fires have happened for more than a couple of years right?
 
And which bodies represent such a community? Which bodies, institutions or acadmeics have supported this person?

And whom from the above bodies arranged these engagements?

Which appearances? Was she engaged to tell her story? Was her opinion treated as that of the networks, or one of a spectrum they included for ballance?

And what does media-disinterest prove? If nobody is bothered about her claims, and they are more interested in better sources, what would be the point?

Her book is now distributed by Ithaca Press, which appears to be a vanity publishing outfit, successor to Authors and Artists Publishers of NY. On Ithaca Press's website, the favorite tagline is "Request a quote."

"The Holocaust community"? LOL
 
It occurs to me that prolific and relentless incredulity about everything may not be the best strategy if you're as aware of and knowledgeable about life as a sack of hammers. Just sayin'.
 
It occurs to me that prolific and relentless incredulity about everything may not be the best strategy if you're as aware of and knowledgeable about life as a sack of hammers. Just sayin'.

At least the hammers have a useful function to serve...
 
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