Merged Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2)

[Fast Eddie B]

On the other hand the Christian martyrs of the 1st century (which wiki reports on here)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs

were willing to sacrifice their lives at different times and places when they had nothing visible to gain.

On the other hand the (Jonestown/Heaven's Gate, your choice) martyrs of the 20th century (which wiki reports on here)

[find the Wiki links yourself I find them too depressing.]

were willing to sacrifice their lives at different times and places when they had nothing visible to gain.

This does not make sense...

You're right on that point - martyrdom rarely makes sense...

...nor do most religions, when viewed objectively.

 

[DOC]

On the other hand the (Jonestown/Heaven's Gate, your choice) martyrs of the 20th century (which wiki reports on here)

[find the Wiki links yourself I find them too depressing.]

were willing to sacrifice their lives at different times and places when they had nothing visible to gain.

Both of those cases for the most part had their charismatic leaders right there (along with many other followers) to pressure them, and Jim Jones at Jonestown also had a gun. This is much different from Christianity where Christ was not there in person to pressure them. Also the Jonestown and Heaven's gate deaths occurred for the most part at a single place and over a short period of time.

And none of the Christian martyrs that we know of killed themselves. There deaths were caused by others when they refused to deny their faith.

And Jesus did say there would be many false prophets come after him.

 

[Akhenaten]

On the other hand the (Jonestown/Heaven's Gate, your choice) martyrs of the 20th century (which wiki reports on here)

[find the Wiki links yourself I find them too depressing.]

were willing to sacrifice their lives at different times and places when they had nothing visible to gain.

Both of those cases for the most part had their charismatic leaders right there (along with many other followers) to pressure them, and Jim Jones at Jonestown also had a gun.

John 18:10

Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.​

This is much different from Christianity where Christ was not there in person to pressure them.

You really believe that Christianity was founded by the alleged Jesus, don't you DOC?

Do you have any idea at all (having been told dozens of times in this very thread) how ludicrous that is?

Also the Jonestown and Heaven's gate deaths occurred for the most part at a single place and over a short period of time.

And how does that affect the power of the martyrdom of those involved to prove the truth of their religions?

And none of the Christian martyrs that we know of killed themselves.

Isn't a martyr someone who suffers persecution and death for their beliefs? How does this preclude suicide, especially when that suicide is carried out under duress?

There deaths were caused by others when they refused to deny their faith.

Where?

And Jesus did say there would be many false prophets come after him.

You have no idea what the alleged Jesus said.

 

[Akhenaten]

Speaking of martyrs . . .

Where and how did Simon Zelotes die, DOC?

 

[Akhenaten]

I wonder if it was here​

 

[dafydd]

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Tyre2.jpg[/qimg]
I wonder if it was here​

Where did you get that photo? That place ceased to exist a long time ago.

 

[DOC]

...You really believe that Christianity was founded by the alleged Jesus, don't you DOC?

Do you have any idea at all (having been told dozens of times in this very thread) how ludicrous that is?...

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed. Bart Ehrman believes that the apostle Paul met with Peter (Jesus' right hand man) and James (the brother of Jesus). Writings written by people who didn't know their writings would end up in something called a bible said this Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. Bart Ehrman said there were Jews shortly after the crucifixion who believed Jesus was the Messiah. Writings written by people who didn't know their writings would end up in something called a bible said this Jesus said go into all the world and preach the gospel. We have evidence some of the apostles went into the world and preached the gospel, We have evidence Peter (Jesus' right hand man) spent his last years in Rome, the center of Christianity for at least 1500 years.

If you don't believe this Jesus founded Christianity that is your right.

 

[Akhenaten]

...You really believe that Christianity was founded by the alleged Jesus, don't you DOC?

Do you have any idea at all (having been told dozens of times in this very thread) how ludicrous that is?...

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed.

Even if he was right, that has nothing to do with the question of who founded Christianity.

Bart Ehrman believes that the apostle Paul met with Peter (Jesus' right hand man) and James (the brother of Jesus).

You will of course be giving a proper cite for this claim, won't you.

Writings written by people who didn't know their writings would end up in something called a bible said this Jesus claimed to be the Messiah.

Writings that for all we know were made up out of whole cloth.

You appear to have completely forgotten that evidence for the veracity of these writings is the very thing that you've been failing to provide in this thread for the last four years.

Bart Ehrman said there were Jews shortly after the crucifixion who believed Jesus was the Messiah.

And for the 1473rd time DOC presents evidence for the existence of Christianity.

Writings written by people who didn't know their writings would end up in something called a bible said this Jesus said go into all the world and preach the gospel.

It's a politically motivated fairytale.

Or have you found that long-awaited evidence that you claimed to have all those years ago?

We have evidence some of the apostles went into the world and preached the gospel,

We have evidence that someone did these things, but none at all that they were apostles of the alleged Jesus. The point is, DOC, that it was these people, Paul chiefly amongst them, who founded Christianity, and not the alleged Jesus, who, for all the evidence we have, may not have existed in any way, shape or form.

We have evidence Peter (Jesus' right hand man) spent his last years in Rome, the center of Christianity for at least 1500 years.

We, or more specifically, you, have no such thing.

If you don't believe this Jesus founded Christianity that is your right.

Believing that Mars is made out of Raspberry Ripple ice cream is my right as well, DOC, but that's not the point.

My belief that Christianity was founded by Paul of Tarsus is based on historical and biblical evidence.

Ignorance of that evidence is your right, of course, but as I pointed out in the post to which you've pretended to respond here, it's quite ludicrous.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed.

Stipulated.

Time to move on.

 

[Akhenaten]

...You really believe that Christianity was founded by the alleged Jesus, don't you DOC?

Do you have any idea at all (having been told dozens of times in this very thread) how ludicrous that is?...

Bart Ehrman believes . . .

<prattlesnip>

Yeah, yeah. We know.

When do you plan on responding to the 80%+ of the post that you snipped out to insert this nimrodness?

The part about the martyrs that was actually the main thrust of it, in other words.

Geeze you're transparent.

 

[Akhenaten]

Where did you get that photo? That place ceased to exist a long time ago.

Sshhhh! Don't tell DOC, but it's actually a photoshop of a bare rock covered in fishing nets.

 

[Mojo]

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed.

DOC, many people believe (and there is much evidence to support this belief) that Abraham Lincoln certainly existed. Is this evidence for the existence of vampires?

 

[Lucian]

DOC, many people believe (and there is much evidence to support this belief) that Abraham Lincoln certainly existed. Is this evidence for the existence of vampires?

Yes it is. I grew up in Springfield, Illinois, where Lincoln lived for many years and where he is buried. Springfield is notable for its absence of vampires--I never saw a single one when I lived there. Clearly, Honest Abe slew them all in the nineteenth century. And if he was able to slay them, that must mean that they exist. It's the only logical conclusion, and I understand logic: I got an A in Logicalness 101 in college.

 

[Akhenaten]

Well, that's me convinced then.

 

[joobz]

Both of those cases for the most part had their charismatic leaders right there (along with many other followers) to pressure them, ...

Matthew 10:32-39

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Yup, no pressuring there at all.

 

[Belz...]

Muslim martyrs today for the most part have some political/nationalistic goal.

And you know that non-modern Christian so-called martyrs were not because... ?

 

[Belz...]

I just noticed that DOC is simply avoiding the posts that ask the hard questions or make difficult arguments. How... odd.

 

[Akhenaten]

I just noticed that DOC is simply avoiding the posts that ask the hard questions or make difficult arguments. How... odd.

It's almost as though he had no intention of taking part in an honest discussion.

 

[Helen]

I think I may have found an explanation for DOC's posts:

Writings written by people who didn't know their writings

 

[catsmate]

Bart Ehrman believes Jesus certainly existed. Bart Ehrman believes that the apostle Paul met with Peter (Jesus' right hand man) and James (the brother of Jesus).

It's a pity he's unable to provide evidence for these claims then.