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Supreme Court Health Care Decision Thread

It's hard to imagine something else that would be similar enough to this to point to this holding but different enough not to have the tax argument.

All it would require is the government compelling an affirmative act that is something other than purchase. So let's say, the government used the commerce clause to require people to report how much beef they eat on a monthly basis. Let's even say the government provides the forms and postage for free. Let's further say the government can't get the info they need directly from the beef producers and grocers. They need to know how much each individual purchases.

The law states that even people who don't purchase beef must fill out the forms, even if it is only to check off the box that says "I purchased no beef this month." So now it is requiring people who did not engage in commerce to take an affirmative act that costs them nothing. Is the beef-reporting mandate constitutional as an exercise of the Commerce Clause? It cannot be justified as a tax. Seems to me that this Court would say it is not.
 
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All it would require is the government compelling an affirmative act that is something other than purchase. So let's say, the government used the commerce clause to require people to report how much beef they eat on a monthly basis. Let's even say the government provides the forms and postage for free. Let's further say the government can't get the info they need directly from the beef producers and grocers. They need to know how much each individual purchases.

The law states that even people who don't purchase beef must fill out the forms, even if it is only to check off the box that says "I purchased no beef this month." So now it is requiring people who did not engage in commerce to take an affirmative act that costs them nothing. Is the beef-reporting mandate constitutional as an exercise of the Commerce Clause? It cannot be justified as a tax. Seems to me that this Court would say it is not.

What's the penalty for failure to report? A smart Congress would impose a "tax penalty" for each month in which a report was not submitted, which would seem clearly permissible under today's decision. If there's no penalty at all, it seems a moot point (and possibly no one would even have standing to challenge the act, as there's no harm in non-compliance). I suppose if the government were threatening to imprison people for non-reporting, that might be held to exceed its Commerce Clause authority under today's decision.
 
While we're talking about spin here, has anybody noticed that all three opinions (by Roberts, Ginsburg and Scalia) talk about broccoli? This point, which I understand was popularized by certain media commentators, was actually discussed at oral argument, to the irritation of at least one justice:
JUSTICE BREYER: All right. But all that sounds like you're debating the merits of the bill. You asked really for limiting principles so we don't get into a matter that I think has nothing to do with this case: broccoli. Okay?
Just becuase something is discussed in oral argument doesn't mean it will make it into the final opinions, however. See, for example, Supreme Court on Homeopathy, Psychics and Satan, in which Satan was discussed repeatedly during oral argument, but the Goat-Footed Fellow didn't get mentioned at all in the actual opinions.

But in this case, everybody talked about broccoli. Justice Ginsburg coined a term for it:
As an example of the type of regulation he fears, THE CHIEF JUSTICE cites a Government mandate to purchase green vegetables. One could call this concern "the broccoli horrible."
 
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All it would require is the government compelling an affirmative act that is something other than purchase. So let's say, the government used the commerce clause to require people to report how much beef they eat on a monthly basis. Let's even say the government provides the forms and postage for free. Let's further say the government can't get the info they need directly from the beef producers and grocers. They need to know how much each individual purchases.

The law states that even people who don't purchase beef must fill out the forms, even if it is only to check off the box that says "I purchased no beef this month." So now it is requiring people who did not engage in commerce to take an affirmative act that costs them nothing. Is the beef-reporting mandate constitutional as an exercise of the Commerce Clause? It cannot be justified as a tax. Seems to me that this Court would say it is not.
How is this theoretical mandate different from the box we must check on our 1040 as to whether we wish $3 to go to the Presidential Election Campaign Fund?
 
Can you elaborate on that?
Sure, will first off, you would agree that an analogy is an analogy because it's not exactly the same as the issue it's intended to speak on, right? Of course that would not invalidate an analogy. Just that given the fact that no analogy is perfect it's reasonable to look to the differences to see the weaknesses of said analogy.

That said, it seems to me that that there is a lack of compelling interest to mandate farmers purchase wheat. That seems to me to be a solutions in search of a problem. But perhaps I'm wrong. To set aside the CC for just a moment. Could you give me a scenario in which you would envision congress levying a tax to ensure that all farmers get wheat sufficient to meet their needs? (forgive my question if you find it presumptuous. I'm not trying to engage in a straw man. Just extending the logic of the tax argument in order to make a point)

To extend the logic a bit further, I could see a comparison with citizens and the market of food. Ostensibly nearly all citizens are involved in the food market. One could ask if it is appropriate for congress to mandate that all people purchase private food insurance. The response to that question could be that the government in effect does that via taxation and SNAP (food stamps). In short, there is a compelling interest to ensure all citizens have health insurance. If that interest could be met through increased taxation by way of the general fund then a mandate is essentially a tax.
 
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So let's say, the government used the commerce clause to require people to report how much beef they eat on a monthly basis. Let's even say the government provides the forms and postage for free. Let's further say the government can't get the info they need directly from the beef producers and grocers. They need to know how much each individual purchases.
Perhaps I'm coming from out of left field and I suspect that may well be your perception of my position. What compelling interest is there to do so? I suppose that you are simply using an extreme example to make a point. If so is this a slippery slope argument (not per se fallacious)? If not then the argument, IMO, does not lend itself to supporting strict adherence of the CC. Again, admittedly I'm a novice at best here so have a bit of patience. :)
 
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Shameless.

ETA: Their headline now shows Obama signing the bill; over the picture they write:
Guess
what's
now a...

'TAX'

So Fox News has given up all pretense of "We report, you decide"?

I know they were never that way, but this isn't even trying.
 
Sure, will first off, you would agree that an analogy is an analogy because it's not the same as the issue it's intended speak on, right? Of course that would not invalidate an analogy. Just that given the fact that no analogy is perfect it's reasonable to look to the differences to see the weaknesses of said analogy.

That said, it seems to me that that there is a lack of compelling interest to mandate farmers purchase wheat. That seems to me to be a solutions in search of a problem. But perhaps I'm wrong. To set aside the CC for just a moment. Could you give me a scenario in which you would envision congress levying a tax to ensure that all farmers get wheat sufficient to meet their needs? (forgive my question if you find it presumptuous. I'm not trying to engage in a straw man. Just extending the logic of the tax argument in order to make a point)
This may take us a bit far afield from the actual case, and of course the analogy may not be perfect, but I'll try. The problem in the case of Wickard v. Filburn was that the price for wheat had plummeted due to a combination of overproduction and underconsumption, causing problems for American farmers. To correct this, Congress enacted wheat production caps aimed at stabilizing the price of wheat by limiting supply. A farmer in Ohio, Filburn, exceeded his production cap but used all of the excess wheat produced on his own farm as feed for livestock rather than selling it in interstate commerce. When he was prosecuted for exceeding the cap, he argued that limiting production of wheat for on-farm use was outside the scope of Congress's authority to regulate interstate commerce. The Supreme Court rejected that argument, holding that the aggregate effects of excess production even for local consumption had an effect on the interstate wheat market by driving down demand for wheat that otherwise would have been purchased on the interstate market. Therefore even local production and consumption of wheat fell within Congress's power to regulate under its Commerce Clause authority.

As I understood Joe's point, he was arguing that there's really no "activity" underlying Congress's authority to regulate in Wickard, because the real problem was not producing excess wheat but rather refraining from purchasing wheat on the interstate market-- i.e., commercial inactivity. And I can sort of see that point; he's right that, had the excess wheat been produced but not consumed, then the excess production would not have been tied to any decreased demand. Seen from that perspective, the act upheld in Wickard was essentially a mandate that wheat used for on-farm consumption must be purchased on the interstate market. Congress could, in theory, have done away with production caps altogether and simply mandated that every farmer must purchase a certain amount of wheat (estimated as roughly the amount that woud be consumed by the farm's commercial activities) on the interstate market, regardless of whether the farmer's needs were met through local production of wheat or not. That would have had the same stabilizing effect as the production quota and would have been a direct mandate to engage in a specific commercial transaction, much like the ACA insurance mandate. I'm not sure if Congress would have upheld such a provision or not-- like Justice Roberts, I tend to think there's a distinction between regulating activity (in the form of production caps) and regulating inactivity (in the form of mandating market participants to engage in commercial transactions that they otherwise would not) that imposes a real limit on Congress's Commerce Clause authority even if an economist would view the two as functionally equivalent. But let's say for the sake of argument that such a mandate would be upheld. Even if that's true, it still seems to me that there's an "activity" here-- it's the activity of engaging in the broader agricultural market that defines "farmers" as a class. Farmers are by definition active participants in the agriculture market in a way that the uninsured (despite arguments about what they may or may not do in the future) are not active participants in the health care market. For the Wickard analogy to work, I think Joe would have to argue that Congress could constitutionally mandate not only farmers, but all Americans to buy some quota of wheat in order to stabilize agriculture prices. And I have a hard time, admittedly on a mostly intuitive level, accepting that that kind of dictate would be within Congress's Commerce Clause power.
 
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This may take us a bit far afield from the actual case, and of course the analogy may not be perfect, but I'll try. The problem in the case of Wickard v. Filburn was that the price for wheat had plummeted due to a combination of overproduction and underconsumption, causing problems for American farmers. To correct this, Congress enacted wheat production caps aimed at stabilizing the price of wheat by limiting supply. A farmer in Ohio, Filburn, exceeded his production cap but used all of the excess wheat produced on his own farm as feed for livestock rather than selling it in interstate commerce. When he was prosecuted for exceeding the cap, he argued that limiting production of wheat for on-farm use was outside the scope of Congress's authority to regulate interstate commerce. The Supreme Court rejected that argument, holding that the aggregate effects of excess production even for local consumption had an effect on the interstate wheat market by driving down demand for wheat that otherwise would have been purchased on the interstate market. Therefore even local production and consumption of wheat fell within Congress's power to regulate under its Commerce Clause authority.

As I understood Joe's point, he was arguing that there's really no "activity" underlying Congress's authority to regulate in Wickard, because the real problem was not producing excess wheat but rather refraining from purchasing wheat on the interstate market-- i.e., commercial inactivity. And I can sort of see that point; he's right that, had the excess wheat been produced but not consumed, then the excess production would not have been tied to any decreased demand. Seen from that perspective, the act upheld in Wickard was essentially a mandate that wheat used for on-farm consumption must be purchased on the interstate market. Congress could, in theory, have done away with production caps altogether and simply mandated that every farmer must purchase a certain amount of wheat (estimated as roughly the amount that woud be consumed by the farm's commercial activities) on the interstate market, regardless of whether the farmer's needs were met through local production of wheat or not. That would have had the same stabilizing effect as the production quota and would have been a direct mandate to engage in a specific commercial transaction, much like the ACA insurance mandate. I'm not sure if Congress would have upheld such a provision or not-- like Justice Roberts, I tend to think there's a distinction between regulating activity (in the form of production caps) and regulating inactivity (in the form of mandating market participants to engage in commercial transactions that they otherwise would not) that imposes a real limit on Congress's Commerce Clause authority even if an economist would view the two as functionally equivalent. But let's say for the sake of argument that such a mandate would be upheld. Even if that's true, it still seems to me that there's an "activity" here-- it's the activity of engaging in the broader agricultural market that defines "farmers" as a class. Farmers are by definition active participants in the agriculture market in a way that the uninsured (despite arguments about what they may or may not do in the future) are not active participants in the health care market. For the Wickard analogy to work, I think Joe would have to argue that Congress could constitutionally mandate not only farmers, but all Americans to buy some quota of wheat in order to stabilize agriculture prices. And I have a hard time, admittedly on a mostly intuitive level, accepting that that kind of dictate would be within Congress's Commerce Clause power.
Thank you. I understand the issue much better now. I'll need to stew on it a bit in order to respond, if I respond at all that is. :)
 
I saw one story on my smartphone that a number of people are so upset with the Supreme Court's upholding "socialized medicine" that they have said they plan to move to Canada.

I first thought the story HAD to be from The Onion. But it may be legitimate.

For those who want to try coming to Canada, I say: Go for it. I did. You might learn something. I did.

Edited to add: Another link showing the outrage.
 
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They keep saying that this affirms the federal government's right to force us to buy something. But they were already forcing us to buy the federal government itself, so what's new?

~~ Paul
 
They keep saying that this affirms the federal government's right to force us to buy something. But they were already forcing us to buy the federal government itself, so what's new?

~~ Paul
You gotta fight for your right to be a free-loader, I guess.

What some folks seem to be overlooking is that governmental power to compel people to contribute (or to buy broccoli) DOES exist, according to Chief Justice Roberts:
Everyone will likely participate in the markets for food, clothing, transportation, shelter, or energy; that does not authorize Congress to direct them to purchase particular products in those or other markets today. The Commerce Clause is not a general license to regulate an individual from cradle to grave, simply because he will predictably engage in particular transactions. Any police power to regulate individuals as such, as opposed to their activities, remains vested in the States.
(Emphasis mine.)
 
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I saw one story on my smartphone that a number of people are so upset with the Supreme Court's upholding "socialized medicine" that they have said they plan to move to Canada.

I first thought the story HAD to be from The Onion. But it may be legitimate.

For those who want to try coming to Canada, I say: Go for it. I did. You might learn something. I did.

Edited to add: Another link showing the outrage.

the-laugh-echo-in-practice.jpg
 
I've been riding the fence on this thing the whole time...mainly because no one seems to have the answer to this question:

What is this going to cost me?

I make about $35k, and get insurance through work. Is my premium going up, down, nowhere? Am I going to have to pay an increased tax to help cover others health care even more so than now?

What should I expect?

I've heard all kinds of opinions...that this is going to cost middle-class Americans dearly in the long run...that it's going to shove America right back into deep recession...etc. etc.

It's all Greek to me right now. I honestly only like the parts where kids can stay on til 26 and that no one can be denied/dropped because of an illness/condition. But that's kind of where I stop. But I will also admit that I'm naive to most of what Obamacare is.
 
They keep saying that this affirms the federal government's right to force us to buy something. But they were already forcing us to buy the federal government itself, so what's new?

~~ Paul
Okay, okay, I get it. But could you just keep your government out of my medicare? It's one of the last vestiges of laissez-fair capitalism left. I paid for it out of each hard earned pay check and it belongs to me.
 
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I've been riding the fence on this thing the whole time...mainly because no one seems to have the answer to this question:

What is this going to cost me?

I make about $35k, and get insurance through work. Is my premium going up, down, nowhere? Am I going to have to pay an increased tax to help cover others health care even more so than now?

What should I expect?

I've heard all kinds of opinions...that this is going to cost middle-class Americans dearly in the long run...that it's going to shove America right back into deep recession...etc. etc.

It's all Greek to me right now. I honestly only like the parts where kids can stay on til 26 and that no one can be denied/dropped because of an illness/condition. But that's kind of where I stop. But I will also admit that I'm naive to most of what Obamacare is.

If you have insurance, nothing. Though your provider might try to increase prices and blame it on whatever.

If you don't, 1% of your yearly income with a minimum of $95 unless your income taxes are simply too low for even that.
 

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