General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

Actually we're discussing the holocaust. Academic understanding of the holocaust is tangential to the discussion. For example, if the overall perception of the holocaust is that there was a plan to exterminate all the Jews, the fact that scholars understand that some Jews were never intended to be exterminated doesn't matter much.

It does beat all that Jewish soldiers in the Nazi military were armed yet not considered dangerous.

 

[TSR]

It does beat all that Jewish soldiers in the Nazi military were armed yet not considered dangerous.

No, it just beats your ignorance of the History involved: why *should* they have been considered dangerous?

And are you ever going to stop endorsing the lies of Zundel, Irving and Rudolf?

Still haven't been spoon fed that lie from THHP, either, hmmmn?

 

[LemmyCaution]

for those interested, http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

 

[Dogzilla]

Thank you for confirming you know little to nothing about the mechanics of cremation in the camps.

One would open the door, slide out what amounts to a tray on rollers (the bit of still burning corpse having fallen through the holes therein) load up anywhere from one to four bodies depending on their size, slide it back in and close the door.

Didn't you at one point claim to have read Pressac?

In any case, there is a good discussion of the matter here. Let me know if you need help with the big words.

Looks like we have a contender for the Stundie!! Call up your local crematorium and describe this procedure. Tell me what they say when they stop laughing.

Wait. Before you do that, tell me about how long you have a corpse in the oven before you open the door, slide it out and plop another corpse on top. five minutes? ten minutes? twenty?

 

[TSR]

Looks like we have a contender for the Stundie!! Call up your local crematorium and describe this procedure. Tell me what they say when they stop laughing.

Well, when I tell them that there is no concern whatever for keeping the ashes separate, and tell them the design of the Krema, they won't *be* laughing.

Wait. Before you do that, tell me about how long you have a corpse in the oven before you open the door, slide it out and plop another corpse on top. five minutes? ten minutes? twenty?

Did you read the link I gave you?

 

[LemmyCaution]

And, a brief essay, on the question of Jewish soldiers in the Wehrmacht: http://books.google.com/books?id=jd...AQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mark rigg jewish&f=false Chapter 9

 

[Clayton Moore]

And, a brief essay, on the question of Jewish soldiers in the Wehrmacht: http://books.google.com/books?id=jd...AQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mark rigg jewish&f=false Chapter 9

In light of how aggressively Hitler pursued the extermination of the Jews, it is surprising how much time he spent reviewing applications for exemptions from the racial laws submitted by Mischlinge. One can understand his careful analysis of the pros and cons of removing a Mischling general from his post, but to many to whom Hitler granted these coveted exemptions were common soldiers with the ranks of private or NCO. Hitler's exemptions and the actions of thousands of Ayran officers, including men close to Hitler, in support of Mishclinge contradicted the Nazis' Weltanschauung. What is particularly difficult to believe that the antisemite Hitler himself granted even one exemption from the racial laws. But he personally issued many. As Kershaw wrote, "Nothing was as it seemed in the Third Reich."

Thanks for providing a link that proves, without any possible doubt, that there was no grand plan by Hitler to exterminate Jewish people.

 

[thedopefishlives]

Thanks for providing a link that proves, without any possible doubt, that there was no grand plan by Hitler to exterminate Jewish people.

Hitler refusing to get his own hands dirty does not necessarily prove he did not have a genocidal intent.

 

[Dogzilla]

Thanks for providing a link that proves, without any possible doubt, that there was no grand plan by Hitler to exterminate Jewish people.

It doesn't prove there was no plan. You can't prove there wasn't a plan. But it is another piece of evidence that doesn't support the notion of Germany having a plan to exterminate all the Jews. Hitler personally reviewing and exempting certain Jews from the Final Solution for any reason is surprising. But exempting them from the Final Solution so they could remain in the military where they could serve as spies or saboteurs is a bit daft.

 

[TSR]

It doesn't prove there was no plan. You can't prove there wasn't a plan. But it is another piece of evidence that doesn't support the notion of Germany having a plan to exterminate all the Jews. Hitler personally reviewing and exempting certain Jews from the Final Solution for any reason is surprising. But exempting them from the Final Solution so they could remain in the military where they could serve as spies or saboteurs is a bit daft.

Spy for whom? Why would they sabotage anything?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Looks like we have a contender for the Stundie!! Call up your local crematorium and describe this procedure. Tell me what they say when they stop laughing.

Wait. Before you do that, tell me about how long you have a corpse in the oven before you open the door, slide it out and plop another corpse on top. five minutes? ten minutes? twenty?

Turns out they were somewhat insulted you would consider this a fair or reasonable comparisson. The staff at the crematorium pointed out that they use considerable self applied restrictions for respect and consideration. In short when they give you an urn they want to be sure that the urn is filled with Nanna and only Nanna.

If the desired intention was to simply burn away bodies as quickly as possible they would be stacking the fuel as soon as some broke down to make room, just like burning waste in an incinerator to make breeze.

They didnt find the misunderstanding of the differing methods or purpose funny.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Spy for whom? Why would they sabotage anything?

Good question.

 

[abaddon]

This thread has firmly jumped the shark.

Now the deniers are citing Holywood movies as evidence.

 

[TSR]

Good question.

Got an answer, since you are speculating on things that did not happen, surely you had some evidence based candidates in mind?

No?

You were just trying your typical passive aggressive insinuation that there *must* have been some sort of issue, even tho you have nothing to point to to suggest an association with reality?


Well, colour me unsurprized...

 

[Multivac]

Most of the sites I can find are in german a language I can read but I doubt most the deniers here can

Thanks anyway. I can speak a little German, and read it even less unfortunately. It's just about enough to be useful on holiday, but not enough to read german texts.

 

[Multivac]

for those interested, http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/righit.html

Interesting, thankyou.

Only read the blurb on the link, rather than the book, but it is surprising that there were upto 150,000 jewish, or partly jewish, people in the German military. I had always assumed that there would be some who managed to stay in the army rather than being shot or gassed, but didn't think the number would be so high.

 

[LemmyCaution]

What's your opinion of Wiesel the liar.
What's your opinion of Spielberg the liar.
What's your opinion of Wiesenthal the liar.
http://www.thejc.com/comment/columnists/it-right-expose-wiesenthal
Wednesday 27 June, 2012
THE JEWISH CHRONICLE ONLINE

Thanks for providing a link that proves, without any possible doubt, that there was no grand plan by Hitler to exterminate Jewish people.

Whatever is meant by "grand plan," I suggest you re-read the Rosenstrasse and Factory Action discussion from a few months ago and consider what were Mischlinge and why, as the link says, the Nazis treated them as they did. You won't really grasp this unless you consider what the Nuremberg laws said about Mischlinge and how the matter was left at the Wannsee conference, right? What, by the way, according to Riggs, was the situation facing "full Jews"?

I just have to point out, in the light of the discussion we had a few days ago about the "contributions" of denial, here we have two deniers peddling a dumbed-down caricature of the history that is based on erroneous assumptions and is horribly misleading versus a historian working in archives and with sources to paint a detailed, nuanced picture of the complexity of Nazi Jewish policy, its evolution and its contradictions. The denier strawmen, Nessie, are utterly worthless, not to put too fine a point on things.

 

[Nessie]

Germany started the German-Polish war by invading Poland while the Soviet Union started the Second Russo-Polish war by invading Poland. Great Britain and France started the world war by declaring war on Germany.

Which ignores the fact that Germany knew fine well invading Poland would result in a declaration of war.

It also ignores the fact that most involved were alive during WWI when Britain came to the defence of Belgium after a German invasion.

 

[Dcdrac]

Interesting, thankyou.

Only read the blurb on the link, rather than the book, but it is surprising that there were upto 150,000 jewish, or partly jewish, people in the German military. I had always assumed that there would be some who managed to stay in the army rather than being shot or gassed, but didn't think the number would be so high.

There a fair few jes on the Gerna militaty during WW2 no secret there.

 

[Nessie]

It doesn't prove there was no plan. You can't prove there wasn't a plan. But it is another piece of evidence that doesn't support the notion of Germany having a plan to exterminate all the Jews. Hitler personally reviewing and exempting certain Jews from the Final Solution for any reason is surprising. But exempting them from the Final Solution so they could remain in the military where they could serve as spies or saboteurs is a bit daft.

Wannsee makes it very clear that there were different plans. It goes into detail about what counts as a Jew. It shows that the bulk were expected to die of natural causes whilst working, there would be a special action for the more resistant and WWI soldiers were to be treated a bit more sympathetically so as not to upset other Germans and go to a ghetto.

You cannot use a very basic summary of Nazis plan to exterminate all Jews and then go into the detail and then declare misleading basic summary is wrong.

As for Jews serving in the military, so did some British and Commonwealth soldiers and there was a coloured regiment based in the Netherlands.