Which political party wants you dead?

[DC]

So you want to cut the cost by half? Which hospitals and clinics will you close, which doctors, nurses, technicians will you lay off, which drugs and procedures will you prohibit to contains costs and how will doing any of that improve the delivery of medical services for anyone???

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hos_bed_per_1000_peo-beds-per-1-000-people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_phy_per_1000_peo-physicians-per-1-000-people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_nur-health-nurses

 

[balrog666]

Who says that ANY of the above would happen?

The role of a Universal 'Health care' system, is to ensure that everyone gets paid. That's all. You already pay taxes into medicare/medicade, and then have to get private insurance on top of that. To top it off, you already have hospitals/doctors writing off procedures that people get, yet cannot pay for.

It has been pointed out in this forum, many many many times, that other countries with UHC of some form, pay much less than what Americans do, for comparable results.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha!

So tell me how you will cut costs then ...

Killing the insurance industry might save you 15% but then you have to replace them with unionized government employees to do the same statistical and analytical work without the benefit of any profit motive ... so, please, tell me how that is going to save any money at all.

 

[Shalamar]

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha!

So tell me how you will cut costs then ...

Killing the insurance industry might save you 15% but then you have to replace them with unionized government employees to do the same statistical and analytical work without the benefit of any profit motive ... so, please, tell me how that is going to save any money at all.

You mean, like the lower costs in every OTHER 1st world country?

Said employees who's only job is to ensure that the hospitals and doctors get paid?

 

[balrog666]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hos_bed_per_1000_peo-beds-per-1-000-people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_phy_per_1000_peo-physicians-per-1-000-people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_nur-health-nurses

Same comment - how will you cut costs and how will that improve the delivery of medical services??? Come on, step on up and tell us who you want to kill and why ...

 

[balrog666]

You mean, like the lower costs in every OTHER 1st world country?

Said employees who's only job is to ensure that the hospitals and doctors get paid?

But we would be starting from the current baseline here, not there.

So try again ...

 

[keale]

But we would be starting from the current baseline here, not there.

So try again ...

Every country started from the current baseline before they were "there" so whats the problem?

 

[Shalamar]

But we would be starting from the current baseline here, not there.

So try again ...

One of the reasons why the US pays twice what other countries do.. is because Americans pay twice for health care! Once for services that most cannot access, and again for themselves.

So try again...

 

[DC]

Same comment - how will you cut costs and how will that improve the delivery of medical services??? Come on, step on up and tell us who you want to kill and why ...

you can't, the USA can never do what the 1st world countries do. i mean heaving more doctors and more hospitals and more nurses for less money, thats only possible in the civilized world.

 

[balrog666]

you can't, the USA can never do what the 1st world countries do. i mean heaving more doctors and more hospitals and more nurses for less money, thats only possible in the civilized world.

You are the ones claiming we can cut costs by 50% and somehow improve service, so just tell us all how you want to do that. And, be specific please.

It seems simple enough to me ... unless you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[DC]

You are the ones claiming we can cut costs by 50% and somehow improve service, so just tell us all how you want to do that. And, be specific please.

It seems simple enough to me ... unless you don't know what you are talking about.

well i didnt make any such claim. when you want to improve your system, you maybe need to take a look where the huge money is wasted. as has been shown, other nations are doing better for less money, this means you are wasting money somewhere in your system. ever wondered where you waste that money?

 

[balrog666]

well i didnt make any such claim. when you want to improve your system, you maybe need to take a look where the huge money is wasted. as has been shown, other nations are doing better for less money, this means you are wasting money somewhere in your system. ever wondered where you waste that money?

Feel free imagine anything you want ...

I suggest this analogy:
1. Nationalize medical services and enslave doctors, nurses, technicians, administrators, and orderlies all while expecting them not to unionize; deprive owners and entrepreneurs of their property and livelihood (with or without just "compensation" for the takings; somehow expect performance to improve ...
2. ???
3. Improved medical service delivery for all at cheaper cost while unicorns fly out of my butt!

Sounds way too much like this:

 

[Shalamar]

Feel free imagine anything you want ...

I suggest this analogy:
1. Nationalize medical services and enslave doctors, nurses, technicians, administrators, and orderlies all while expecting them not to unionize; deprive owners and entrepreneurs of their property and livelihood (with or without just "compensation" for the takings; somehow expect performance to improve ...
2. ???
3. Improved medical service delivery for all at cheaper cost while unicorns fly out of my butt!

Sounds way too much like this:

[qimg]http://www.apostropher.com/blog/img/underpants-gnomes-business-model.png[/qimg]

It's a good thing that despite your incredibly well built Strawman, no-one is arguing anything like that.

 

[DavidJames]

Pretty much the rest of the world can successfully do UHC but xenophobia, ignorance and political ideology will prevent the U.S. rising to their level.

I hold out that I could be wrong, and UHC would not work here, but I've seen no rational argument supporting why.

 

[keale]

Feel free imagine anything you want ...

I suggest this analogy:
1. Nationalize medical services and enslave doctors, nurses, technicians, administrators, and orderlies all while expecting them not to unionize; deprive owners and entrepreneurs of their property and livelihood (with or without just "compensation" for the takings; somehow expect performance to improve ...
2. ???
3. Improved medical service delivery for all at cheaper cost while unicorns fly out of my butt!

Sounds way too much like this:

[qimg]http://www.apostropher.com/blog/img/underpants-gnomes-business-model.png[/qimg]

So you think this will happen but you dont have anything to support it?
Did I tell you about the time I did a 360 back flip slam dunk from the 3pt line? Or the time I paddled into a 200ft wave in Waikiki?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Pretty much the rest of the world can successfully do UHC but xenophobia, ignorance and political ideology will prevent the U.S. rising to their level.

I hold out that I could be wrong, and UHC would not work here, but I've seen no rational argument supporting why.

Aggregate longevity and cost measures do not establish that State provision of meical services works better than provision by market-oriented economies. Aggregate measures of success respond to considerations beyond quality of care, such as lifestyle. Aggregate measures also respond to differences in measuring methodology (one way to pump measures of post-diagnosis treatment success is not to count those cases which are not treated at all, for example). Measures of cost are subject to manipulation, by omitting some types of terminal care from the calculation or eliminating some care, such as extreme neonatal care or terminal geriatric care.

 

[DC]

Feel free imagine anything you want ...

I suggest this analogy:
1. Nationalize medical services and enslave doctors, nurses, technicians, administrators, and orderlies all while expecting them not to unionize; deprive owners and entrepreneurs of their property and livelihood (with or without just "compensation" for the takings; somehow expect performance to improve ...
2. ???
3. Improved medical service delivery for all at cheaper cost while unicorns fly out of my butt!

Sounds way too much like this:

[qimg]http://www.apostropher.com/blog/img/underpants-gnomes-business-model.png[/qimg]

wow, you must have been totally missinformed. nobody is enslaved in my country. nor in any other OECD country..... have you been homeschooled?

 

[TruthersLie]

Travis - I know I've said it before, but have you looked into the local county and state medical assistance programs available?

I know that locally (where I reside) they've covered up to and including a liver transplant, and I know a guy right now going through cancer treatment through the county and they seem to be doing a good job of it.

Thank you.

I love hearing about how w/out obamacare people will not get health insurance/health care... and no one EVER realizes that EACH state has their own health care for the poor.

EVERY state has their own health care providers for the poor or those unable to afford insurance.

But lets keep on with the boogey man of "no health care" for so and so.

 

[stevea]

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha!

So tell me how you will cut costs then ...

Killing the insurance industry might save you 15% but then you have to replace them with unionized government employees to do the same statistical and analytical work without the benefit of any profit motive ... so, please, tell me how that is going to save any money at all.

15% savings - that would be fantastic but it's unlikely. You could in theory recoup their profit margin around 6%, but then without the profit motive fraud and abuse will likely approach those of Medicare/Medicaid and you'll have a net 9-13% INCREASE in cost of delivered services. Of course I am ignoring that with more demand and no more supply, that actual prices will rise. Yeah - it's brilliant.

The main problem with US medical care costs is lack of competition. The first major flaw is that WW2 wage caps led to employer sponsored plans. So the provider, receiver and payer are three different parties and most people are ignorant of the real costs and don't care. Another problem is our patent system that completely prevents competition (creates a monopoly) - needs modification that still rewards invention but also allows for competition. The next problem is chrony capitalism, for example big pharma lobbying Congress to prevent re-importation of meds from Canada. As someone already mentioned US insurance isn't really insurance at all as it covers pre-existing conditions as well as regular expenses. We need to separate the major risk management aspects from social welfare. I should mention that there is a SMALL role for government in this. We should have NIST develop national standards for a national or planetary medical records system that ensures privacy while also giving researchers and managers access to anonymized information. Should have been done a decade+ ago.

We need to break up the medical fiefdoms. Does it require a PhD licensed bonded pharmacist to count pills ? That sounds like a job for a machine. Many other aspects of care can use lesser skilled labor. What abound advertising prices for non ER services.

I don't think the socialist solution works any better in the US than does Medicaid.

 

[stevea]

you can't, the USA can never do what the 1st world countries do. i mean heaving more doctors and more hospitals and more nurses for less money, thats only possible in the civilized world.

Maybe we can't The mostly Euro nations that have NHC have much more homogeneous populations, than we do. This arguably permits for a degree of trust that allows these more extensive social programs to work without so much fraud and waste.

I took a quick scan and didn't find good fraud stats for EU country programs.

 

[DC]

Maybe we can't The mostly Euro nations that have NHC have much more homogeneous populations, than we do. This arguably permits for a degree of trust that allows these more extensive social programs to work without so much fraud and waste.

I took a quick scan and didn't find good fraud stats for EU country programs.

1. that the USA can't was not meant seriously. Sure the USA can.

2. we have almost 25% of the population comming from another country. How much has the USA?

3. got any evidence to show that the non homogenous part of a population commits more fraud?