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Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

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Unabogie said:
Ok, I knew this was around here somewhere. John, witness #6 said the fight happened directly behind his house.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witmap470.jpg

This puts him half way down from the edge of his house.

So this means it's
10' for the grass
30' for the first house.
15' to the middle of the second house.

For George to have stumbled there, he'd have needed to stumble 55 feet.

Anyone think that makes sense?
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You should really watch the re-enactment. Zimmerman claims he was hit at the T and stumbled. The then recounts fending off blows and walks away from the T and toward John's house. He expresses to the police that he is uncertain how far down the T the altercation went. He narrates the final part of the altercation around 15' away from where the body ended up. Remember also that W6 recounted movement during the terminal phase of the altercation. He correctly places John coming out of the back patio door, but chooses the wrong house.



Pause the video at 4:33. The patio you see behind and to the right of Zimmerman is W6.
 
Dancing David said:
Please don't, there are those of us who just ignore the chaff that gets generated when there is nothing else to discuss. Now if there are specific derails you would like split, that would be great.
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If I thought there was a serious posssibility that the people who would like to have a rational discussion (and those hopefully lurking) could do so by splitting this off from the bizzare speculationists and deniers, I'd have brought it up in FM by now.
 
Rare Truth said:
When my nose is even stuffy...*hold nose to make the sound* I talk different.

Don't you?
Click to expand...

It depends on how stuffy and how much I compensate by closing off the passageway to my nose to prevent the hypernasality. Like I said, I will have to listen to all of the audio, again, to hear where he says it.
 
Cylinder said:
You should really watch the re-enactment. Zimmerman claims he was hit at the T and stumbled. The then recounts fending off blows and walks away from the T and toward John's house. He expresses to the police that he is uncertain how far down the T the altercation went. He narrates the final part of the altercation around 15' away from where the body ended up. Remember also that W6 recounted movement during the terminal phase of the altercation. He correctly places John coming out of the back patio door, but chooses the wrong house.



Pause the video at 4:33. The patio you see behind and to the right of Zimmerman is W6.
Click to expand...

But except for this:


  1. John says the fight took place directly behind his house, not up the walkway.
  2. George says he went straight down in his first two versions of the story. The fact that he later changed his story to better explain where he ended up doesn't help.
  3. Even in his walkthough, George can't seem to explain how they got all the way down there.
But for the sake of argument:



  1. Do we agree that to be dead in the middle of John's house would be ~55 feet?
  2. Do we agree that John's house is the second house, not the corner house?
 
sgtbaker said:
It depends on how stuffy and how much I compensate by closing off the passageway to my nose to prevent the hypernasality. Like I said, I will have to listen to all of the audio, again, to hear where he says it.
Click to expand...

What about you, sgtbaker? You ready to stipulate that the middle of John's house puts the body ~55 feet from the T, where George originally said he went down?

If so, does the fact that he now says he "stumbled" from the T to a spot 55 feet away trouble you? Specifically:


  1. Does changing his story from going straight down to the ground to moving 55 feet constitute a material changing of the story?
  2. Do you believe that he stumbled 55 feet?
 
Unabogie said:
Ok, I knew this was around here somewhere. John, witness #6 said the fight happened directly behind his house.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witmap470.jpg

This puts him half way down from the edge of his house.

So this means it's
10' for the grass
30' for the first house.
15' to the middle of the second house.

For George to have stumbled there, he'd have needed to stumble 55 feet.

Anyone think that makes sense?
Click to expand...


The proper way to do this is to recreate the complex as a 3-D model using the available photos and floor plans.

I've done this kind of construction in another case quite successfully. There are plenty of photos so I don't know why we don't have a virtual model of the Retreat yet.
 
Unabogie said:
Criminal!

So do you agree with my numbers up above? I'm trying to get a sanity check on that. Did George have to "stumble" 55 feet to get to where he shot Trayvon? If so, how can that square with his initial story of being hit once and then falling down immediately?
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I'm honestly not sure, as I don't have enough background. I'll take some time tonight and tomorrow possibly to look. If you have some more info WRT: distances and GZ testimony, feel free to PM them to me, so as to not clutter the thread.

Sorry, I have been out of the thread since right before his bond was revoked, so LOTS of information is new to me.
 
Natural Born Skeptic said:
Some things I have learned in this thread.

1a. That is TM screaming on the 911 calls as he's about to be murdered in cold blood.
1b. But if it's GZ screaming, which it's not, it's irrelevant and has no bearing.

2a. GZ likely self-inflicted his wounds.
2b. But if GZ didn't self-inflict his wounds, which he did, they really aren't that bad anyway. (I actually agree they aren't that bad, it's the inanity of ever feeling the need to deny they occurred as part of the confrontation that is bizarre)

3a. GZ chased TM down.
3b. But if he didn't chase TM down, which he did, he still had no business getting out of the car and trying to see where he went. The moment he got out of the car he became "physically involved".

4a. GZ attacked TM.
4b. But if TM attacked GZ, which he didn't, GZ deserved it and TM was just defending himself.

I've seen this type of reasoning overwhelmingly on one side, but in fairness it plays out on both. For instance:

5a. GZ has shown no propensity for lying or deceiving.
5b. GZ may have shown a propensity for deceiving at the bond hearing but that doesn't mean he is deceiving about the shooting. (while technically true, I don't see how anyone cannot concede we've observed a willingness to deceive at this point)

Anyhow, it seems to me that in all of those scenarios if it's one and not the other, it should result in a substantial re-balancing and reevaluation of what happened. If you can start at "a" and then move to "b" with no impact on your evaluation, than you're operating in the realm of religious belief, and facts are irrelevant to you.
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I learned that unless you are a texan child molster, you don't have to worry about being beaten to death because being punched in the head can't kill you, unless of course you are a texan child molster that is. I also learnt that obeese and unfit late twenty year olds are better fighters than taller, althetic, and fit 17 year olds, just because they weigh more.
 
Unabogie said:
Right, which is what George originally claims. But if he's hit from the south, and falls north, then staggering backwards a few steps just puts him even further from where the body ended up. Plus, in his first interview, he went straight down. No staggering.
So he wasn't on his way back to his truck?

He demonstrated is as him "stumbling" while swinging his hands and being on his feet. He seemed to not know how to explain it, but it definitely wasn't rolling all the way there.

He says he went straight down, so there ought to be NO distance, right?
This still wouldn't account for why he's so far south when he was hit, staggered back a few steps, then went down. Does his later explanation make sense to you?
Click to expand...

Fights are confusing, especially when you are surprised in the dark, and you get hit in the head a couple times.

It's not at all surprising that GZ isn't sure of some things.
 
Rare Truth said:
All we have is ""We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

That's not a firm diagnosis.

But who knows?

Could be.

It took quite a beating.

Z-nose.jpg
Click to expand...
You don't see anything odd about the left side (right side as you look at the pic) of his nose?
 
WildCat said:
You don't see anything odd about the left side (right side as you look at the pic) of his nose?
Click to expand...

GZ sure fooled a lot of people with those pretend injuries ...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin20120517,0,7498893.story
Later in the recorded interview with investigators, the responder said it appeared that the “nose was swollen and that there were abrasions on his cheeks and face.”

Both responders said they thought police would take Zimmerman to a hospital for stitches to his head.

O'MARA: Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.
GILBREATH: No.
O'MARA: You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained, correct?
GILBREATH: I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

Wow, if only Gilbreath had reviewed the file !

REPORT PREPARED BY: Serino, Christopher F Sanford Police Department
...
On 3/9/2012 I received a fax from Altamonte Family Practice, which contained the medical records identifying the Injuries sustained by Zimmerman on the evening of 2/2612012. Said medical reoords list Zimmerman's
injuries as;
1. Open wound of scalp, without mention of complication
2. Nasal bones, closed fractUre
3. Assault by other specIfied means

Reporter: W8678 Wagner, Michael
I saw that Zimmerman's face was bloodied and it appeared to me that his nose was broken.

Reporter: M0491 Mead, Jonathon
Zimmerman appeared to have a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face.
 
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WildCat said:
You don't see anything odd about the left side (right side as you look at the pic) of his nose?
Click to expand...

Some minor swelling and bruising, but no deviation.

Did RT say that it looked normal?

I think everyone here, from both sides, agree that GZ was punched in the face, which caused the damage to his nose.
 
Just as a note: Z failed to mention to the EMT that he took Adderall (20mg) twice daily.

He did tell the EMT about the Temazepam.

Uppers and downers.
 
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