Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[crimresearch]

You'd be wrong but I don't labor under the impression, nor do I have the interest, that anything I do or say will change your mind.

Assumes facts not in evidence... like you making a supportable assertion *or* giving a straight answer after being asked legitimate questions about your drive bys.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You seem to be angling away from the point.

Well, I tried to answer the question you asked me.

Zimmerman made three specific claims about the nature of the assault.

1) Martin repeatedly punched him in the face.

2) Martin repeatedly bashed his head on the ground.

3) Martin attempted to smother him with his hands.

OK, I don't have a specific problem with any of those claims.

All three actions would necessitate that Martin come in contact with Zimmerman's head and face which EMTs report were almost half covered in blood.

Forensics report that Martin had none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA on his hands.

How do acccount for that?

I don't know. I don't know if the rain had any effect or not. I don't know how much blood to really expect on his hands. I think this is something that will have to be explained by experts at trial.

I can only at this moment say I believe TM hit him some number of times greater than, say, 5, and didn't have blood or DNA on his hands. I don't know what the 'believable' limit for number of hits with no blood or DNA is for you. Obviously there is some lower number that is believable ?

 

[Rare Truth]

What the hell is this "drive by" crap?

A poster posts on a message board when they are inclined and they have the time.

What makes her responses, inquiries, analysis or questions any less a contribution than yours?

Her response about the EMT experience was directed at LCT8K6 - not even you - and you jump in with this:

"...Do you have some facts, or are you simply playing the game it looks like you are playing, of running away between these drive-by pooh flingings? "

Just looks like more attempts to deride the poster to me.

 

[triforcharity]

I actually think it's very obvious that he was punched many times and his head was banged on something hard many times.

I have no trouble believing TM beat the crap out of GZ that night.

His head was supposedly slammed many times on the sidewalk. And yet, only three very small lacerations appear on the back of his head.

I've been in one major fight in my life. I was with some friends at a local adult entertainment club, and me and my friends were jumped. I got a few punches in before I started losing, and even just the 4 punches (including one suckerpunch) that I received, my face looked 100x's as bad as his. Huge, black and blue eyes, huge fat lip that was purple, and one eye almost swollen shut.

Sorry, I don't buy it. You're welcome to, but myself and the 3 other paramedics here, do not. So, you're welcome to believe whatever you'd like. I refuse to believe he received the ass whooping that he claims he did.

 

[triforcharity]

I think we all know how well the "internet doctor" thing worked out earlier in the thread.

You mean the one you got schooled on? lol!

 

[triforcharity]

Besides, GZ doesn't need to have any bad injuries, or even any injuries at all...

No, you're right. But the problem is really simple.

The story GZ is telling is that he was attacked and beaten, and was in direct fear of his life. Now, I know that this is going to be difficult, but we'll go slow.

Why aren't his injuries consistent with his story? (hint: they aren't.)

So, his story just purely isn't believable.

Also, the LAST thing you want to do when in a hand to hand combat struggle with a person trying to get your weapon, is draw that weapon. That is the LAST thing you want. Keep it away from the other person, or get away in any way possible, whatever. The LAST thing you want to do is make that gun visible and accessible.

But, then again, we know GZ doesn't think very rationally...

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I think we all know how well the "internet doctor" thing worked out earlier in the thread.

You mean the one you got schooled on? lol!

If that's how you remember it. I recall a number of posters who claimed they looked at pictures on the internet, and GZ definitely did not have a broken nose. And they looked at pictures, and said there is no way he could have needed stitches. And then we heard from the non-Internet EMTs and Doctors.

Do you really want me to go back and put your statements in the current context of the emts who actually examined GZ who stated they thought the police would take him to the hospital for stitches ?

 

[Rare Truth]

He *still* does not "definitely" have a broken nose, only thing we have is his own doctor calling it a "likely" broken nose, "We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

...and he never got stitches.

ONE paramedic said maybe one or two stitches.

They were not concerned enough to even apply a bandage.

Then George said himself: They told me I didn't need to go to the hospital.

From my earlier post:

He refused medical treatment that night. That tells us a lot.
He refused seeking ENT specialist the next day to confirm nose broken. Tells us more.
He tells Singleton that night he feels generally OK - he also states to her that night "they told me I didn't need to go to the hospital."

 

[This is The End]

He *still* does not "definitely" have a broken nose, only thing we have is his own doctor calling it a "likely" broken nose, "We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

I posted this last week, good to keep in mind:

On the matter of the broken nose.

Some of you are acting like a broken nose is binary. Broken or not broken. Isn't there a large range, from barely fractured to completely destroyed (layman's terms)?

I'd be surprised if Z's broken nose is (was) anywhere near the destroyed end of the range, since ,AFAIK, people that have a completely destroyed nose lose tons of blood and are in severe pain for quite some time.

So I wonder if many people who are saying that Z didn't have a broken nose are meaning that he didn't have a real broken nose, IE completely destroyed.

 

[Cylinder]

His head was supposedly slammed many times on the sidewalk. And yet, only three very small lacerations appear on the back of his head.

Of course, since we're both familiar with fistfights, we both know that the hit-to-mark ratio isn't 100% for someone Martin's size and build, right?

I'm not trying to be snarky here, BTW. I'm curious why the inconsistent injury claim is made. I know why the police make it - it's what they have to say. Putting aside what you know about this case and using your professional experience can you honestly say that if presented with these injuries and the narrative of someone having their head slammed against the concrete and punches, you'd be able to rule that attack out?

 

[Rare Truth]

I guess what I'm saying is he doesn't have a documented broken nose.

Only a likely one. Had he not REFUSED to go to the ENT, as that same family doctor noted he should, we'd know for sure.

 

[Rare Truth]

I read a little scenario typed by someone elsewhere on how effectively the prosecution could handle that doctors report - with the doctor on the stand on cross:

Q: In your report, you said that the defendant's nose was "likely broken". What led you to this conclusion?

A: Well when I examined it there was <medical jargon> and <more medical jargon> all of which pointed to the possibility of a closed fracture.

Q: Oh. The possibility. So it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis?

A: No it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis.

Q: What did you do from there?

A: <more medical jargon and explanation of medical procedure in situations like this> ... Since I had no way of being certain I referred him to a specialist for confirmation.

Q: Did he see the specialist for confirmation purposes?

A: No he declined my recommendation.

Q: Oh. So you're saying he refused to go?

O'Mara: Objection! Asked and answered!

Judge Lester: Overruled. Answer the question.

A: That's correct.

Q: And because of that he wasn't able to confirm the fracture?

A: That's also correct.

Q: From a medical standpoint, could you say for certain that the defendant's nose was broken?

A: No I could not. *glances at notes* As I said, there was a strong possibility of a closed fracture but without Dr. <specialist>'s diagnosis I can't confirm it one way or another.

Q: Thank you for your testimony.
​

 

[triforcharity]

Let's say that TM "came out from the bushes" with a baseball bat, and swung at GZ, missing him. GZ then draws and fires.

GZ is uninjured, yes? Sure

A Louisville Slugger can do GBH in one shot, yes? Absolutely

GZ has a good self defense case, without any injuries. Correct. TM also had a deadly weapon, that he had (in this case) shown to be willing to use

GZ does not need to wait for TM to connect with the bat.

Correct. But, again, a baseball bat can certainly be considered a deadly weapon. TM had nothing but his fists....

My answers in bold.

***

GZ similarly doesn't need to wait for TM to connect a few more times with his fist, or for TM to bang his head a few more times.

(Assuming GZ's story is accurate, that is, and so far there are no giant holes in it.)

Reaching for the gun? That's probably imagination on GZ's part.

But, again, the law states that he must be in reasonable fear of his life. IMPO, a fist fight does not constitute a reasonable fear, especially one that leaves no bruising and no real visible swelling.

Wanna see what a real fistfight victim looks like?

****Some graphic images****

http://atlas-emergency-medicine.org.ua/ch.1_files/image021.jpg

http://files.forensicmed.webnode.com/200000025-5ce9c5de3e/bft_to_face.jpg

Now, look at GZ's face, and look at these ones. Which one appears to have been in a more severe fight?

 

[sgtbaker]

I don't know if it's actually evidence of anything but you can hear faint nose whistling in the first interview with Zimmerman. My nose does the same noises (actually it's doing it right now and it's making me laugh), but I don't know if it started after I got kicked in the nose or if I was born with a deviated septum. I just thought it was funny and the talk of septum deviation reminded me that I heard that in the interview. Carry on.

 

[triforcharity]

What the heck is a trunk monkey, anyway?

They're hilarious!

Compilation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Rx6WB5YJia8&NR=1

 

[TheL8Elvis]

He *still* does not "definitely" have a broken nose, only thing we have is his own doctor calling it a "likely" broken nose, "We discussed it was likely a broken nose with no septal deviation..."

That's typically the only diagnosis people get. Most people don't get X-rays or go to an ENT to confirm.

...and he never got stitches.

Oh, goodness ! Did someone claim he did ?

ONE paramedic said maybe one or two stitches.

You can , of course, support that claim with a link ?
I've listened to the paramedic audio. None of them said "maybe one or two stitches".

They were not concerned enough to even apply a bandage.

Then George said himself: They told me I didn't need to go to the hospital.

Which is true. He wasn't required to go to the hospital. Shocking.

From my earlier post:

He refused medical treatment that night. That tells us a lot.
He refused seeking ENT specialist the next day to confirm nose broken. Tells us more.
He tells Singleton that night he feels generally OK - he also states to her that night "they told me I didn't need to go to the hospital."

Maybe it tells us he didn't have the money to pay for an emergency room visit ? What do you think it tells us ? Maybe he was planning to go home and have shellie break his nose ?

 

[sgtbaker]

I read a little scenario typed by someone elsewhere on how effectively the prosecution could handle that doctors report - with the doctor on the stand on cross:

Q: In your report, you said that the defendant's nose was "likely broken". What led you to this conclusion?

A: Well when I examined it there was <medical jargon> and <more medical jargon> all of which pointed to the possibility of a closed fracture.

Q: Oh. The possibility. So it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis?

A: No it wasn't a confirmed diagnosis.

Q: What did you do from there?

A: <more medical jargon and explanation of medical procedure in situations like this> ... Since I had no way of being certain I referred him to a specialist for confirmation.

Q: Did he see the specialist for confirmation purposes?

A: No he declined my recommendation.

Q: Oh. So you're saying he refused to go?

O'Mara: Objection! Asked and answered!

Judge Lester: Overruled. Answer the question.

A: That's correct.

Q: And because of that he wasn't able to confirm the fracture?

A: That's also correct.

Q: From a medical standpoint, could you say for certain that the defendant's nose was broken?

A: No I could not. *glances at notes* As I said, there was a strong possibility of a closed fracture but without Dr. <specialist>'s diagnosis I can't confirm it one way or another.

Q: Thank you for your testimony.
​

Does anyone else remember O'Mara countering that line of questioning with asking if they were aware that Zimmerman went to the doctor the next day? I could have sworn OM said he was going to hand over documents showing that Zimmerman's nose was actually broken, when he went to the doctor the next day.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just a question here: According to this NY Times diagram (you have to click on the arrows, go to the last page), TM struck GZ on the sidewalk at the T intersection BEFORE they were in the backyards between a row of townhouses. Then TM's body was found about three houses IN along that row. That's a pretty substantial distance. So, is this accurate? Does GZ claim that TM punched him, then ran away and GZ chased him? Or that GZ tried to run away, and TM chased him? Or that they struggled hand-to-hand the whole distance? Or what? How did they get from the initial punch to the location of the body?
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

A good punch can make you stagger backwards a few steps.

GZ might not have been exactly at the T.

TM may have pushed GZ, or they may have struggled on the ground, moving south.

The distances are not totally out of line with an encounter roughly as GZ described.

TM's body was rolled over as well.

 

[sgtbaker]

They're hilarious!

LOL

I want one!

 

[Rare Truth]

I don't know if it's actually evidence of anything but you can hear faint nose whistling in the first interview with Zimmerman. My nose does the same noises (actually it's doing it right now and it's making me laugh), but I don't know if it started after I got kicked in the nose or if I was born with a deviated septum. I just thought it was funny and the talk of septum deviation reminded me that I heard that in the interview. Carry on.

That interview the night of the incident, he tells Singleton at one point (or maybe it was the stress test guy...) that his nose was blocked, yet he sounded the same in all the interviews, tone-wise.

Block your nose right now and talk out of it.

How different do you sound?