Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Cylinder]

Where is DD lying?

Your candidate theory used Zimmerman's initiation of the dialouge as evidence of his overzealousness. DeeDee's statement asserts Martin spoke first.

And stop with the "Team Crump" stuff. This is about the State of Florida vs George Zimmerman.

Uhh...no. I will attribute whatever talking point a party makes to that party. If you need evidence of Crump pitching that particular one throughout the media, I'll be happy to provide...

 

[Noztradamus]

Except he's on tape saying that he's right at the clubhouse, then seconds later that's where Trayvon "checks him out". That's why it's impossible he was parked there, but also why it's impossible that the "circling" happened at the T, as he claims in his walkthrough. For me, it's the way the walkthrough doesn't match the NEN that sinks him. He made up a narrative that helps him appear as though he wasn't following and only went to look for an address, but in doing so, he contradicts himself in such a grievous way that I don't see how he can explain himself later. And his scenario about Trayvon running behind the rows, then coming back, and THEN circling the car, is so detailed, that if he's making that up, it just devastates his credibility. And the NEN proves he's making that up. I don't see an out for the guy.

George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there

19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

19:12:33 Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
That's at GZ's position
19:13:03 Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.

 

[Unabogie]

Your candidate theory used Zimmerman's initiation of the dialouge as evidence of his overzealousness. DeeDee's statement asserts Martin spoke first.

None of that matters to my theory. My theory is that George is lying about the only thing he said being "I don't have a problem" in response to Trayvon. George told quite a few lies, and I think his story has fallen apart even without DD at all. Just his version of events leading up to his meeting Trayvon is filled with inconsistencies and changing versions.

Once you get to that point, who spoke first is of no consequence. It's clear that George ran after Trayvon with the intent to not let him get away. That's where he will sink himself, as it should be.

Crump has nothing to do with this. Serino and his partner had his number.

By the way, did you listen to those tapes? Did they not give you any pause at all? I just do not think you listened to them, since you're still talking about who spoke first and Crump. I speculated a ways back that once we heard George's version it'd fall apart, and that's abundantly clear. Go ahead. Listen to:

1. The NEN call.
2. Serino's interrogation.
3. George's walkthough.

And come back and tell me it holds up.

 

[Unabogie]

George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there

19:11:16 Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, ~~~~ the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

19:12:00 Dispatcher: Okay—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

19:12:33 Zimmerman: Ayup, he's coming to check me out.
That's at GZ's position
19:13:03 Zimmerman: Actually. You would go past the clubhouse.

Ok, I see what you mean. Yeah, that would put him closer. It's also possible that this is where he parked and not at the T. Martin sees him again and takes off, and that is when he exits the vehicle and starts his foot chase. That would indeed explain why it took so long to get to the T.

 

[Cylinder]

George never says he is near the clubhouse, it's Martin near the clubhouse when my timeline places him there.

In the walkthrough, Zimmerman also asserts he was parked much closer to the cut through "by the signs" then - for whatever reason - stops Serino farther away.

 

[Cylinder]

By the way, did you listen to those tapes? Did they not give you any pause at all? I just do not think you listened to them, since you're still talking about who spoke first and Crump.

You cannot reasonably keep mis-stating the evidence and accuse me of ignorance of it. What's your theory? How well does it stand up?

I am in the process of digesting the interviews. I've yet to see any material inconsistencies. You guys are going off half-cocked.

Let's take the "check the body" claim. On one hand, we have Zimmerman claiming he checked Martin after the fatal gunshot and spread his arms out in an attmept to subdue him. A SPD officer claims the arms were under the body. For some of you guys, the course of action is to fill in the inconsistency with whatever fevered theory comes to mind. To you, it somehow shows that Zimmerman had to be lying thus [insert theory of crime minus any evidence]... That's not the way it works.

Another approach could be to look at the evidence. In this case, you'd find that at least one more witness saw Zimmerman "straddle" Martin after hearing a gunshot and talking to flashlight man. OK. How credible is she? Most of the witnesses to the aftermath saw flashlight man at that point.

I'll do a post later of Zimmerman's key claims and what independant evidence supports them. What I really need to know at this point is the timing of the 911 calls and the timing of DeeDee's calls to Martin.

Feel free at any time to discuss your theory of the crime. It's hard to keep up with a constant assertion of this might have happened, do the research to see what the evidence supports, then come back people who then claim that was only hypothetical.

 

[Unabogie]

You cannot reasonably keep mis-stating the evidence and accuse me of ignorance of it. What's your theory? How well does it stand up?

I am in the process of digesting the interviews. I've yet to see any material inconsistencies. You guys are going off half-cocked.

Let's take the "check the body" claim. On one hand, we have Zimmerman claiming he checked Martin after the fatal gunshot and spread his arms out in an attmept to subdue him. A SPD officer claims the arms were under the body. For some of you guys, the course of action is to fill in the inconsistency with whatever fevered theory comes to mind. To you, it somehow shows that Zimmerman had to be lying thus [insert theory of crime minus any evidence]... That's not the way it works.

Another approach could be to look at the evidence. In this case, you'd find that at least one more witness saw Zimmerman "straddle" Martin after hearing a gunshot and talking to flashlight man. OK. How credible is she? Most of the witnesses to the aftermath saw flashlight man at that point.

I'll do a post later of Zimmerman's key claims and what independant evidence supports them. What I really need to know at this point is the timing of the 911 calls and the timing of DeeDee's calls to Martin.

Feel free at any time to discuss your theory of the crime. It's hard to keep up with a constant assertion of this might have happened, do the research to see what the evidence supports, then come back people who then claim that was only hypothetical.

The most glaring inconsistency is, of course, the claim that Trayvon went behind the T and then came back and circled his car. In the NEN call, that clearly happens somewhere else and cannot be reconciled. Listen to the NEN call. He says the closes address is 1111 Retreat View. Seconds later, he's being "circled" or "checked out". But he claims in his walkthrough that he was parked in the lot on Retreat View when he called but says the circling happened near the T. This is impossible and is clearly false. The second thing he lies about is returning to his truck after he claims he agreed with the NEN dispatcher. 84 seconds later, he's not past the T. He then claims he stopped on Retreat View on the other side, which contradicts what he just said. He also cannot explain how he got 25' south of the T, when he claims to have been hit and immediately fell down. How he "staggered" 25' south is a complete mystery to everyone, especially George. There are many more which we've already listed. This netbook has a tiny keyboard so I'll leave it to you to search what's already been posted. I also posted my theory on how it went down. I agree with Serino.

He chased, he caught up, he tried to detain, they fought, he shot, he lied.

 

[Unabogie]

Another glaring lie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4

At 4:40, he says he got out of the car because he "thought to get out and look for a street sign". Yet in the NEN call, you can clearly hear him running. He's out of breath and you hear the wind going against his phone. Then the dispatcher picks up on this and asks him if he's following and he says "yes". Yet in the walkthrough he claims he got out just to look for a street sign. This is a clear lie.

Next up, at the 7:00 mark, he says he told the dispatcher he'd meet him at his car. This is clearly false, since he tells the dispatcher "you know what, have them call my cell phone and I'll tell them where I'm at" AFTER saying he would meet them at his car. So again, his story is completely shaky.

Finally, check the time on how long it takes to get from Retreat View back to the T. It takes about 10 seconds. On the NEN call, it's 84 seconds from the time George says he stopped running to the time he hangs up. And in the end, does he ever give them an address from Retreat View? No, since that would have the cops show up on that street and not by his car. So in the end, his whole "I'm looking for a street sign" seems ridiculous.

Just compare his walkthrough to the NEN call. It's painful. I especially note his inability to explain the mechanism for how he got attacked in one place but ended up on the ground so far away. Does that look credible to anyone? Come on.

 

[johnny karate]

It's quite clear Zimmerman was lying and/or omitting details in order to exonerate himself from any wrongdoing. He's concocted a tale in which he did absolutely nothing wrong and was - for some unexplainable reason - violently attacked and nearly murdered by an unprovoked teenage boy walking home from the store.

That anyone would buy this fantasy - especially in light of his recent courtroom shenanigans - is unfathomable to me.

 

[Noztradamus]

The most glaring inconsistency is, of course, the claim that Trayvon went behind the T and then came back and circled his car. In the NEN call, that clearly happens somewhere else and cannot be reconciled. Listen to the NEN call. He says the closes address is 1111 Retreat View. Seconds later, he's being "circled" or "checked out". But he claims in his walkthrough that he was parked in the lot on Retreat View when he called but says the circling happened near the T. This is impossible and is clearly false. The second thing he lies about is returning to his truck after he claims he agreed with the NEN dispatcher. 84 seconds later, he's not past the T. He then claims he stopped on Retreat View on the other side, which contradicts what he just said. He also cannot explain how he got 25' south of the T, when he claims to have been hit and immediately fell down. How he "staggered" 25' south is a complete mystery to everyone, especially George. There are many more which we've already listed. This netbook has a tiny keyboard so I'll leave it to you to search what's already been posted. I also posted my theory on how it went down. I agree with Serino.

He chased, he caught up, he tried to detain, they fought, he shot, he lied.

OK new info. It appears I may have been mistaken at timing the beginning of George's NEN call at 19:11:12. According to http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/the-missing-230-and-deedees-testimony. (yeah I know, I know. but bear with the sauce for a minute) it was actually 19:09:34.

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

Now the Zimmermistas at wagist seen to think this justifies George's SYG, but to my mind he is now Guilty Guilty.

OK he may not have lied about the circling, but he got out of his truck to follow Martin TWICE, denied following him, refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch, despite two opportunities “Why are you following me?” "What's your problem?"

In contrast Martin attempted to disengage, twice, only to find George subsequently following him. Martin's SYG, fully justified.

(If that account is a true one)

 

[This is The End]

It's the walkthrough that's impossible, and that happened last. On the NEN call, he's clearly at the clubhouse when he talked about Trayvon approaching his car. This is when he pulled ahead of Trayvon and Trayvon is on his way home. This all takes place in about 1 minute. But in the 29th interview, he's still saying it took place at the clubhouse, until it's pointed out to him how that doesn't make sense. The next time, he's moved it to the T and he says that Trayvon ran around the corner, came back again, back out onto the street, and then circled his car. This is his final version and it's impossible both in terms of timing and because it directly contradicts his NEN and earlier statements.

If that is true it's bad for Z. It goes from 2 locations to 1 with a clear motive for making that change.

That isn't just a normal memory problem scenario.

 

[bynmdsue]

OK new info. It appears I may have been mistaken at timing the beginning of George's NEN call at 19:11:12. According to http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/the-missing-230-and-deedees-testimony. (yeah I know, I know. but bear with the sauce for a minute) it was actually 19:09:34.

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

Now the Zimmermistas at wagist seen to think this justifies George's SYG, but to my mind he is now Guilty Guilty.

OK he may not have lied about the circling, but he got out of his truck to follow Martin TWICE, denied following him, refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch, despite two opportunities “Why are you following me?” "What's your problem?"

In contrast Martin attempted to disengage, twice, only to find George subsequently following him. Martin's SYG, fully justified.

(If that account is a true one)

Or...Trayvon led him into an ambush.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I watched the walkthrough, when it was released on the news, and I watched it again, when it was linked here, because the news started talking over the video, at the point where Zimmerman was explaining how he was holding Trayvons hands out. I listened to the audio, again, last night. The order of the interviews appears to be, one period of questioning the night of the incident, a few hours later (now after midnight dated 2-27) another interview, then the walk through, the following morning. By the time we get to the walk through, I can already see blatant spots where he is not sure of the actual order of events such as the 911 conversation. When they are standing at the opposite street, he recalls part of the conversation that didn't happen, and then starts confabulating them with things that did happen. Then he realizes, "No, I was standing over there when the operator said this." You can see his memory is really starting to fail but he appears to be trying to keep things in order but no matter how hard an individual tries, they are going to fail at remembering every detail. Our brains will fill in that detail, subconsciously, to maintain the story. It is very possible that he does not remember exactly where
Trayvon approached the car. We do know, though, that there was a point that Trayvon approached the car because he was narrating it. Of all things, what do you think his reason is for lying about that?

Seriously, have you ever watched Randi's videos proving how bad our memory is when talking to a pscychic? There was one where he had a woman get a psychic reading. She was supposed to tell the psychic every time she got something wrong. Then he listens to the recording and counts how many times they psychic got something wrong. The woman's answer was in the low tens. James Randi said he counted something in the 40's guesses the psychic got wrong. We do not have perfect memories. Our brains don't always remember things in the correct order.

I'm glad you're taking the time to post because it's posts like this that are the only thing left making this thread remotely interesting.

 

[Cylinder]

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Q: Did you pursue this kid? Did you want to catch him?

A: No (chuckles)

Which is exactly how a person might react to someone saying that if they didn't want to catch him.

Anyone believe that? After saying "*********** punks" who "******** always get away", "****, he's running", "are you following him? Yeah", he says no, he didn't want to catch him?

I don't know if I believe it, but I find nothing unbelievable about it.

This guy is toast.

You're over the top hated of this guy has rendered you incapable of any type of rational analysis of anything. You see lies EVERYWHERE. Just as you knew you would before you ever saw the evidence.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Looks like they took the original media narrative and reenacted it. If it happened that way it should be first degree murder. I guess gz just wanted to call the police before he murdered him.

 

[Noztradamus]

Or...Trayvon led him into an ambush.

Hmmm ham bush!

 

[Unabogie]

Which is exactly how a person might react to someone saying that if they didn't want to catch him.


I don't know if I believe it, but I find nothing unbelievable about it.

You're over the top hated of this guy has rendered you incapable of any type of rational analysis of anything. You see lies EVERYWHERE. Just as you knew you would before you ever saw the evidence.

Personal attacks are all you have? It used to be we had to wait to hear George's account. We could speculate that he told a coherent tale and talk about watermelon lean. Now we have his words, and I've pointed out to everyone how implausible his story is. The detectives clearly saw right through him and didnt buy his story either. Now he will have to account for what he did. Yep, I'm enjoying this part.

 

[Unabogie]

OK new info. It appears I may have been mistaken at timing the beginning of George's NEN call at 19:11:12. According to http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/the-missing-230-and-deedees-testimony. (yeah I know, I know. but bear with the sauce for a minute) it was actually 19:09:34.

Now that doesn't change either your or my reconstruction timing of what happened during Martin's journey from 1440 RVC to the walkway tee, just places it 1'40" earlier.

This allows George time after the NEN call to return to his truck, Martin to retrurn and "circle the truck"

7:14:30 Zimmerman gets back to his SUV and is waiting for the police to arrive. Suddenly, there’s a knock at the window, it’s Trayvon.

“Why are you following me?”

“I’m not.”

Trayvon starts to walk away, then runs, between buildings

Zimmerman decides he wants to keep Martin in sight.

Martin leaps out of bushes, fight, "BANG" as before

Now the Zimmermistas at wagist seen to think this justifies George's SYG, but to my mind he is now Guilty Guilty.

OK he may not have lied about the circling, but he got out of his truck to follow Martin TWICE, denied following him, refused to identify himself as Captain of the Watch, despite two opportunities “Why are you following me?” "What's your problem?"

In contrast Martin attempted to disengage, twice, only to find George subsequently following him. Martin's SYG, fully justified.

(If that account is a true one)

But this speculation is old, from before we got his own words to match against the NEN call. We can tell that the circling didn't happen the way he says because the timing doesn't match. Serino keeps asking him "where are you here?" because he wants to tie him down. I'll read this link but my contention is that even without DD his story doesn't hold up.

 

[johnny karate]

Or...Trayvon led him into an ambush.

Yeah, that's what happened. The kid without a violent history decided to wait in ambush and murder Zimmerman... for some reason.

That's much more plausible than a proven liar telling lies to cover his ass.