Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[TheL8Elvis]

Ok, this is something I'm having a problem with right now. Zimmerman appears to be saying that he was hit and he went down and we all know the rest.

Haven't witnesses or at least one witness said they saw 2 people chasing each other or one chasing the other?

Also, the movement away from the T supports at least a minimal scuffle and moving around and maybe slight chase because someone is trying to move away before Zimmerman ends up on the ground.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8391650#post8391650

She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, "I saw two guys running. Couldn't tell you who was in front, who was behind."

She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she "saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don't know who was hitting who."

A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart.

That all changed when she was re-interviewed March 20 by a state agent. That time, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him.

"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses.... I just know I saw a person out there."

Just one ... that matches up more with GZ story of TM disappearing between the houses then coming back ?

 

[Bikewer]

I said much earlier that it wouldn't surprise me to see Zimmerman accept a plea-bargain manslaughter charge and do minimal time.
It also wouldn't amaze me to see him successfully sued for wrongful death, though I don't know how much of his donated funds he'll have left after he pays his lawyers...

 

[bookworm]

Just one ... that matches up more with GZ story of TM disappearing between the houses then coming back ?

Yes, it does. Why would she have initially said she saw a person chasing another person? Normally I'm more inclined to believe initial stories. Her first interview was 4 days later....I suppose that was enough time for her to hear rumors about what happened and maybe adjust what she thought she saw accordingly.

 

[Unabogie]

That's the clubhouse. That's where he said he initiated the call from ... why is this a problem ?

By the way, I listened to the tape again. It's right at the beginning of part 3 of the 29th interview. And I keep hearing it as 111, not 1111.

Meaning he says "one eleven". Not "one one one one" or "eleven eleven" or "eleven hundred eleven".

Listen for yourself. It's a weird anomaly, I'm not saying it means anything, but it could.

 

[Dan O.]

Ok, this is something I'm having a problem with right now. Zimmerman appears to be saying that he was hit and he went down and we all know the rest.

Haven't witnesses or at least one witness said they saw 2 people chasing each other or one chasing the other?

Also, the movement away from the T supports at least a minimal scuffle and moving around and maybe slight chase because someone is trying to move away before Zimmerman ends up on the ground.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this.

George doesn't say anything about a scuffle so there is no scuffle that supports his innocence. An explanation that does work though is after the initial verbal encounter Trayvon proceeds towards his residence down the path to the south and George chases after him again and attempts to detain him. George's illegal use of force would give Trayvon the right to respond with force, a punch to the nose resulting in dropping George to the ground where Trayvon would immediately mount him and check his pickets for weapons, tossing the found objects aside.

For those of you who are about to claim that there is no evidence that George attempted to restrain Trayvon, you are in a pickle there because there is no evidence that he didn't. So it cannot be claimed that Trayvon's use of force was not justified.

There is no evidence of a continued beating and the evidence strongly suggests that no such beating took place except in George's mind. After falling over backwards and hitting his head on the concrete, his head would be pounding. And lying on his back with a broken nose, he could very well feel that he was being suffocated. In his semi-conscious state, George is immagining what is hapening to him and screaming like a baby.

The last yelp might not be George. A neighbor has just come out and interrupts saying he is calling the police. Trayvon's back would be towards this neighbor so Trayvon would not have seen him but would have heard him. The presence of a witness would tell trayvon that it was safe to let George get up. As Trayvon starts to get up, this gives George access to his gun which he could not have reached before.

 

[sgtbaker]

Yes, it does. Why would she have initially said she saw a person chasing another person? Normally I'm more inclined to believe initial stories. Her first interview was 4 days later....I suppose that was enough time for her to hear rumors about what happened and maybe adjust what she thought she saw accordingly.

I am more inclined to believe her first interview, as well. It is perplexing but it would help to know where she lived, relative to the fight and at what point she saw the shadowy figure. If she lived up by the T, intersection, she could have seen George stumbling after Trayvon hit him. However, if she lived somewhere else, it would be some pretty damning evidence against George's claim that he stopped following Trayvon after the call ended.

 

[This is The End]

The screams.

Something came to mind: The screaming stopped the instant the shot went into Trayvon's heart.

Now, that was something brought up before, and something some of the witnesses noted, making that part clear to them - it was TM, and not GZ screaming.

Zimmerman defenders have returned with: well, sure it stopped. Z was no longer in fear...(or some such) --

BUT! But...noooooooooooow we know, now, since GZ's statements have been made public: this isn't the case.

GZ did not think he killed TM. He believed the "suspect" still placed him in danger - to the point he mounted TM's body and spread his arms apart, and then after told flashlight man: help me subdue this dude.

That sure changes the twist on that little story line...

Here's the last 8 seconds with volume normalized that was posted last week so everyone can hear for themselves:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=05894431095829727103&t=0589443109582972710386417

What I hear is a loud scream (at :02) then 2 seconds later (at :04) either a scream or a yell of "help" (that one is hard to tell because the dispatcher is talking) then 2 seconds later (at :06) a very clear yell of "help", then 1 second later (at :07) is the gunshot.

I really don't want to make any judgments about it....

Though I will say that it seems weird that Z would yell the word "help" again almost at the very instant he is pulling the trigger.

 

[Unabogie]

Yes, it does. Why would she have initially said she saw a person chasing another person? Normally I'm more inclined to believe initial stories. Her first interview was 4 days later....I suppose that was enough time for her to hear rumors about what happened and maybe adjust what she thought she saw accordingly.

I am more inclined to believe her first interview, as well. It is perplexing but it would help to know where she lived, relative to the fight and at what point she saw the shadowy figure. If she lived up by the T, intersection, she could have seen George stumbling after Trayvon hit him. However, if she lived somewhere else, it would be some pretty damning evidence against George's claim that he stopped following Trayvon after the call ended.

This is why I said that I didn't think forensics or SYG would decide the case. If jurors think that George is lying about what happened that night, they will convict him.

It's a fact that he killed Trayvon, but his defense is that it was justified because he was attacked for no reason. If you disbelieve that, then what's left?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

By the way, I listened to the tape again. It's right at the beginning of part 3 of the 29th interview. And I keep hearing it as 111, not 1111.

Meaning he says "one eleven". Not "one one one one" or "eleven eleven" or "eleven hundred eleven".

Listen for yourself. It's a weird anomaly, I'm not saying it means anything, but it could.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

IDK. I agree he says 111.
Then the dispatcher says:
OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...

And GZ agrees that is the clubhouse. He says 111, and means 1111. It just sounds to me like GZ is bad with addresses and street names.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I am more inclined to believe her first interview, as well. It is perplexing but it would help to know where she lived, relative to the fight and at what point she saw the shadowy figure. If she lived up by the T, intersection, she could have seen George stumbling after Trayvon hit him. However, if she lived somewhere else, it would be some pretty damning evidence against George's claim that he stopped following Trayvon after the call ended.

Here are the addresses.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witmap470.jpg

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This is why I said that I didn't think forensics or SYG would decide the case. If jurors think that George is lying about what happened that night, they will convict him.

It's a fact that he killed Trayvon, but his defense is that it was justified because he was attacked for no reason. If you disbelieve that, then what's left?

That's incorrect. His defense self defense: TM was on top of him, he could not retreat, TM said words to the effect of "you are going to die tonight" and GZ felt him reach for his weapon.

That is what the state has to disprove. Everything else is window dressing.

 

[Unabogie]

Here are the addresses.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witmap470.jpg

Which one is she?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Here's the last 8 seconds with volume normalized that was posted last week so everyone can hear for themselves:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=05894431095829727103&t=0589443109582972710386417

What I hear is a loud scream (at :02) then 2 seconds later (at :04) either a scream or a yell of "help" (that one is hard to tell because the dispatcher is talking) then 2 seconds later (at :06) a very clear yell of "help", then 1 second later (at :07) is the gunshot.

I really don't want to make any judgments about it....

Though I will say that it seems weird that Z would yell the word "help" again almost at the very instant he is pulling the trigger.

I find it all "weird" because shooting and killing someone isn't normal. Getting in a fight with a stranger outside in the rain isn't exactly normal either.

I would find it more strange that TM was screaming help the entire time, even when he was on top of GZ, and didn't stop when the witness told them he was going to call 911.

GZ clearly states he was telling the "John" to help, and that matches exactly with "Johns" initial witness statement. Someone care to explain that away ?

 

[Unabogie]

That's incorrect. His defense self defense: TM was on top of him, he could not retreat, TM said words to the effect of "you are going to die tonight" and GZ felt him reach for his weapon.

That is what the state has to disprove. Everything else is window dressing.

No. If he gets up on the stand to give that story, and he must, then if the jury thinks he's making it all up, he'll be convicted. The state can disprove it by showing what a conniving liar George is. Would you acquit a man who claimed he shot someone in self defense, if you found him to be utterly dishonest about key details in his story?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Which one is she?

Witness 2.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/ne...an-trayvon-martin-case-released-to-the-public

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No. If he gets up on the stand to give that story, and he must, then if the jury thinks he's making it all up, he'll be convicted. The state can disprove it by showing what a conniving liar George is. Would you acquit a man who claimed he shot someone in self defense, if you found him to be utterly dishonest about key details in his story?

Actually, legally, yes.

You might be right and a jury would convict him simply on the basis of his perceived credibility. But that is not proving even manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt, is it ?

 

[Unabogie]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

IDK. I agree he says 111.
Then the dispatcher says:
OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...

And GZ agrees that is the clubhouse. He says 111, and means 1111. It just sounds to me like GZ is bad with addresses and street names.

By the way, I'm glad you linked to this, because it demonstrates a glaring inconsistency in George's story.

Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok

Ok, so here he is, saying he's at the clubhouse and this is the point at which Trayvon circled his car. But in the re-enactment (and Serino nails him on this) he says this all took place right outside the T near that sign. There's no way to reconcile this. He's at the clubhouse, then he's three blocks away from the clubhouse.

Care to explain how he can't remember where this crucial, bizarre, intimidating action from Trayvon took place and why his story the next day so clearly contradicts the NEN call?

 

[Unabogie]

Actually, legally, yes.

You might be right and a jury would convict him simply on the basis of his perceived credibility. But that is not proving even manslaughter beyond a reasonable doubt, is it ?

Yes it is. The act of shooting the kid is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether or not Trayvon Martin attacked him for no reason at all, in a fit of homicidal rage, as George claims. If George is lying (and at this point are you claiming his story holds up?) then what's left?

A shooting of an unarmed kid, by a guy who pegged him wrongly for a criminal and then followed him and ignored all common sense. And then lied his ass off about the events that night. And you think a jury will have trouble convicting under those circumstances?

 

[sgtbaker]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

IDK. I agree he says 111.
Then the dispatcher says:
OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111? Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...

And GZ agrees that is the clubhouse. He says 111, and means 1111. It just sounds to me like GZ is bad with addresses and street names.

Which kind of supports his defense that he really sucks with streets and addresses, unless he was pretending to give the wrong address or have difficulty giving directions to where he was, as a preemptive set up to get away with murder.

 

[Unabogie]

Which kind of supports his defense that he really sucks with streets and addresses, unless he was pretending to give the wrong address or have difficulty giving directions to where he was, as a preemptive set up to get away with murder.

Maybe. But care to address the point above about how he was at the clubhouse for the "circling" but then in the re-enactment that whole scene moved to the "T"?