Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Unabogie]

Brought over from old thread:

Aside from (arguably) things like thinking, imagining, etc - everything is a 'physical activity'.

You are making arbitrary distinctions to suit your scenario.



Everyone at the track is physically involved in the activity of going to the racetrack for the race

I think a reasonable person could interpret physically involved as, for example, getting involved in a confrontation. Like the witness 'John' - who stepped outside to get 'physically involved' with GZ and TM by yelling at them but didn't run over and try to break up the fight, but ran inside to call the police. By your definition, he was physically involved. I think if you asked someone not involved in this discussion if John was 'physically involved' - they would clearly say no.

But everyone knows that watching a game from the stands is different from running out on the field. Once you run onto the field, you will suffer consequences. George ran onto the field and then lied about it.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Yes, and let's add in a few more from the bond hearing.

1. He said on the stand that he didn't know Trayvon was a teenager, while on the NEN tape he says "late teens".
2. He says he told the detectives he was remorseful. Anyone watching the interviews can tell that's a lie.
3. He says he didn't give multiple accounts. Well, ok, maybe he doesn't realize how all over the place he is, but we certainly can notice it.

I think just his timeline is enough to convict him. Just when he says he is at the clubhouse vs when he says he's at the crime scene. When he claims he wasn't following, yet he's clearly following. When he says he was going back to the truck but then changes that to say he stayed on Retreat View because he didn't want to walk back to his truck. Yet he does just that, which is why he's at the T in the first place. Where he says he was hit from the south and went down to the north, yet ended up 50' south of the T. How he can't explain key details. How he claims he moved the body with the arms out yet that's not how the body was found. How he says he was smothered but you don't hear that on the tape. How he claims that he was hit 30 times in the face. How Trayvon talked like a movie gang banger.

His story...is...not credible.

I'll bite. In order, and I am too lazy too cut and paste:

He didn't know how old he was. As for remorse, GZ seems generally monotone. I am not sure what you would expect him to be doing ...crying and wringing his hands ? I thought all his accounts were mostly consistent.

The timeline, I am not sure about. it may or may not be OK.

As for being hit at the T, that's where his keys were, and everything moves southward from there. That I don't have a problem with, as the witnesses described them as moving around as well. I think the actual distance the moved is more like 20 -25 feet than 50 feet.

I am surprised he does not have better explanations for what happened, but i can sort of understand things happened rather quickly and perhaps unexpectedly.

I think the LEO is mistaken on the body position. I'll have to keep looking on that one.

 

[Unabogie]

I'll bite. In order, and I am too lazy too cut and paste:

He didn't know how old he was. As for remorse, GZ seems generally monotone. I am not sure what you would expect him to be doing ...crying and wringing his hands ? I thought all his accounts were mostly consistent.

The timeline, I am not sure about. it may or may not be OK.

As for being hit at the T, that's where his keys were, and everything moves southward from there. That I don't have a problem with, as the witnesses described them as moving around as well. I think the actual distance the moved is more like 20 -25 feet than 50 feet.

I am surprised he does not have better explanations for what happened, but i can sort of understand things happened rather quickly and perhaps unexpectedly.

I think the LEO is mistaken on the body position. I'll have to keep looking on that one.

On the stand he says he thought he was his age or a few years younger. On the NEN he says late teens. A perfect example of a self serving lie.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

On the stand he says he thought he was his age or a few years younger. On the NEN he says late teens. A perfect example of a self serving lie.

Perhaps. Is it conceivable that he saw him, and initially estimated late teens, and after the <whatever happened> and he had been in close contact with TM, he revised his age estimate to early twenties ?

He clearly wanted to address TM mother, when she said on TV that she would ask GZ did he know how old TM was, that he was not armed, etc. How was this lie 'self-serving' ?

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x34vSJrIqe0&feature=player_detailpage#t=34s

"I don't know the exact path he took, but he did come in that back gate. I knew he was going to the back of the house, he was sittin' out there"

This is also part of where that "sitting on the porch" idea comes from.

 

[marplots]

But everyone knows that watching a game from the stands is different from running out on the field. Once you run onto the field, you will suffer consequences. George ran onto the field and then lied about it.

Let us suppose he ran out onto the field. Let us also suppose he's a flagrant liar. How will these get him convicted of murder? Unless he somehow enticed TM to attack him so he could then shoot Trayvon, it's hard to get past the "reasonable doubt" standard.

I see this coming down to a battle of forensics and the prosecution proving something about the danger to life not existing. Without that, it seems like a steep hill to climb. It would be a much easier case if GZ hadn't been injured, or if TM had some injuries showing he had been punched as well.

The whole business about GM trying to play cop sounds like it could be used in a civil trial for negligence and wrongful death, but I don't see how it proves much in a criminal trial.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x34vSJrIqe0&feature=player_detailpage#t=34s

"I don't know the exact path he took, but he did come in that back gate. I knew he was going to the back of the house, he was sittin' out there"

This is also part of where that "sitting on the porch" idea comes from.

It's interesting, for GZ, the back gate is the east gate of the subdivision. For Mr. Martin, the back gate is a cut through where there is no fence. Just an observation how two people talking about the same subdivision can use the exact same words two mean two completely different things.

Also, I agree, that helps explain the 'sitting on the porch' comment.

 

[This is The End]

Everyone at the track is physically involved in the activity of going to the racetrack for the race

Note that you say "going to the racetrack" is the activity instead of running in the race! That's not gonna just squeak through without people noticing!

I'll make this simple.

The specific activity is a track&field sprint race between 10 runners.

Those 10 runners are "physically involved" in that specific activity during the race.

Everyone else, including the people in the stands, everyone else, is not physically involved in that specific activity.​

Do you agree with that or not?

If not, please elaborate.

 

[marplots]

The specific activity is a track&field sprint race between 10 runners.

Those 10 runners are "physically involved" in that specific activity during the race.

Everyone else, including the people in the stands, everyone else, is not physically involved in that specific activity.​

Do you agree with that or not?

If not, please elaborate.

That sounds good. And people in the stands who move about to get a better view of the activity are still not participating.

Now, it seems straightforward to map this onto the activity of "acting suspiciously" (allegedly) and moving around, even following, to better view that activity. On the other hand, if the activity in question is just "walking around" then you have a point.

I certainly hope my neighbors have enough sense to keep an eye on suspicious characters in my area. I'd do the same for them. And if their suspicions are misplaced, I hope it gets cleared up quickly and without anyone getting hit or shot.

 

[This is The End]

I certainly hope my neighbors have enough sense to keep an eye on suspicious characters in my area. I'd do the same for them. And if their suspicions are misplaced, I hope it gets cleared up quickly and without anyone getting hit or shot.

I believe we all hope that our neighbors keep an eye on suspicious people in the neighborhood.

I also believe we all hope that our neighbors don't leave their house or vehicle and start following the suspicious people around.

Keep in mind though, the argument was about what Z's Neighborhood Watch guide meant by:

"What you will not do is get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehension of any suspicious persons."

Not about whether or not it will have any specific legal bearing in Z's trial.

On the other hand, if the activity in question is just "walking around" then you have a point.

Exactly.

I'm not even convinced it would count 100%, but I am surely convinced that it is not a definite "no" like WildCat seems to think.

 

[Unabogie]

Let us suppose he ran out onto the field. Let us also suppose he's a flagrant liar. How will these get him convicted of murder? Unless he somehow enticed TM to attack him so he could then shoot Trayvon, it's hard to get past the "reasonable doubt" standard.

I see this coming down to a battle of forensics and the prosecution proving something about the danger to life not existing. Without that, it seems like a steep hill to climb. It would be a much easier case if GZ hadn't been injured, or if TM had some injuries showing he had been punched as well.

The whole business about GM trying to play cop sounds like it could be used in a civil trial for negligence and wrongful death, but I don't see how it proves much in a criminal trial.

I do not think forensics wil play a large part. I think it will be all about George and his story. He killed someone, and all you have to support his version of who started the fight is the word of a liar. Common sense tells us the guy who followed and was angry started it. Unless you believe George over common sense, I think he'll be convicted.

 

[marplots]

Where do we place our bets?

 

[Unabogie]

Where do we place our bets?

Right here!

 

[crimresearch]

Watching the reenactment, I nearly died laughing at the knuckle bandages on GZs head. Those are NOT butterfly bandages. Perhaps the wife/nurse in training put those on for him. I guarantee you no medical professional did that business. Same with the bandage on his nose. That isn't a piece that goes across the nose, again it's a knuckle bandage.

What a couple of knuckle heads.

And your point?

 

[crimresearch]

Because you listened to Serinos interview (the detective who said everything supports GZ) and you liked his interview, suddenly the entire SPD didn't do a bad job ?

Apparently the closer to the movies, and the less like boring old real life things are, the better some folks like it.

 

[marplots]

I'll bet he gets off for murder, but if manslaughter is a lesser included charge, I'm not sure how that will go.

It might depend on getting a jury that can be convinced that, in similar circumstances, they would have acted the same as Georgie. For example, if I had called the cops on someone, I'd try to keep them in sight -- maybe even follow them -- so that when the cops showed up, I would know where the guy was. On the other hand, I doubt I'd call the cops in the first place, just because I saw someone I didn't recognize walking through the complex.

And for darn sure, I'd do everything possible not to get on that jury.

 

[crimresearch]

I'll bet he gets off for murder, but if manslaughter is a lesser included charge, I'm not sure how that will go.

It might depend on getting a jury that can be convinced that, in similar circumstances, they would have acted the same as Georgie. For example, if I had called the cops on someone, I'd try to keep them in sight -- maybe even follow them -- so that when the cops showed up, I would know where the guy was. On the other hand, I doubt I'd call the cops in the first place, just because I saw someone I didn't recognize walking through the complex.

And for darn sure, I'd do everything possible not to get on that jury.

Let us also suppose he's a flagrant liar. How will these get him convicted of murder?

Exactly. The prosectuion can try to insinuate that his being unclear, or dishonest about other things detracts from credibility, but they will still need proof beyond a resonable doubt that GZ was 'not' in fear for his life when he said he was.

And proving a negative while staying within the rules, isn't so easy. That is going to take some concrete evidence that is drastic... like a clubhouse video of him tackling Trayvon from behind and shooting him.

What they won't be able to do is argue: "Zimmerman is a lying gangbanger', or 'He said he owned a red truck, and this title clearly proves it was actually a burgundy SUV, therefore his lie proves that you must vote guilty of murder'.

They can't prevail merely on an alternative theory of events.

The defense on the other hand, *is* going to be able to impugn the prosecution's every misstep and tell the jury, 'Why should you believe anything they say, now?'

And every little thing that the prosecution brings up about George's past, the defense is going to able to claim as proof of his innocence.

'...Yes ladies and gentlemen of the jury... my client got into fights... and never before felt the need to defend himself with deadly force'.

'Yes, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Mr. Zimmerman did run around pretending to be a Neighbrohood Watch Captain, and called the police mutiple times on young black men... and never shot at a single one of them'.

 

[Mumbles]

I believe we all hope that our neighbors keep an eye on suspicious people in the neighborhood.

I also believe we all hope that our neighbors don't leave their house or vehicle and start following the suspicious people around.

And I think that this has been covered before, but the basic idea is very obvious.

If you decide to chase around some person who turns out to be innocent, then you are the criminal, since you're menacing a person for no reason. And if the person you're chasing turns out to be a criminal, then you're actively trying to confront a criminal. There's no way you can win here. If they attack, well, you're under attack. If the cops show up, well, it's you against them, and you were chasing. You just can't come out ahead here.

Obviously,there are some exceptions - I'm not mad at that guy who saw a someone molesting his daughter and punched him dad. And I wn't be angry at a woman that reacts to street harassment. But the rule is, don't get physically nvolved, and running after someone violates that rule.

And that's the big problem here. Zimmerman's entire account reads like he's Sanford's Batman, but when you hear the actual case, he's just an idiot.

 

[Rare Truth]

The screams.

Something came to mind: The screaming stopped the instant the shot went into Trayvon's heart.

Now, that was something brought up before, and something some of the witnesses noted, making that part clear to them - it was TM, and not GZ screaming.

Zimmerman defenders have returned with: well, sure it stopped. Z was no longer in fear...(or some such) --

BUT! But...noooooooooooow we know, now, since GZ's statements have been made public: this isn't the case.

GZ did not think he killed TM. He believed the "suspect" still placed him in danger - to the point he mounted TM's body and spread his arms apart, and then after told flashlight man: help me subdue this dude.

That sure changes the twist on that little story line...

 

[bookworm]

......
As for being hit at the T, that's where his keys were, and everything moves southward from there. That I don't have a problem with, as the witnesses described them as moving around as well. I think the actual distance the moved is more like 20 -25 feet than 50 feet.

I am surprised he does not have better explanations for what happened, but i can sort of understand things happened rather quickly and perhaps unexpectedly.

...

Ok, this is something I'm having a problem with right now. Zimmerman appears to be saying that he was hit and he went down and we all know the rest.

Haven't witnesses or at least one witness said they saw 2 people chasing each other or one chasing the other?

Also, the movement away from the T supports at least a minimal scuffle and moving around and maybe slight chase because someone is trying to move away before Zimmerman ends up on the ground.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this.