General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Clayton Moore]

Just ignore the lies and live off the Holocaust.

The totals for the individual countries are different by millions yet the totals of all countries always hover at within 200,000 of each other.

 

[TSR]

Just ignore the lies and live off the Holocaust.

In what way does anyone here "live off the Holocaust"?

The totals for the individual countries are different by millions yet the totals of all countries always hover at within 200,000 of each other.

Really? Millions? The only two countries in your sources *capable* of differing by millions are Poland and the USSR, and they only differ between your sources by a few thousand.

And the totals between the three differ by roughly 4%, because of this -- different methodologies for creating the *estimates* (another word you should really learn the definition of) would be expected to produce different figures.

So, let's take the one country you cherry picked, Hungary. The difference between the highest and lowest is quite high, and the set with the lowest also has the lowest extimate of the total.

Learn how these were calculated, and you will understand why this is such a silly argument, advanced to hide your gaffe about death threats being 94% effective -- except when they are against Jews, apparently, because each of them was a walking timebomb who would not have been able to be threatened.

If the Jews were that brave, why aren't you trying harder to emulate them?

 

[Clayton Moore]

In what way does anyone here "live off the Holocaust"?

Really? Millions? The only two countries in your sources *capable* of differing by millions are Poland and the USSR, and they only differ between your sources by a few thousand.

And the totals between the three differ by roughly 4%, because of this -- different methodologies for creating the *estimates* (another word you should really learn the definition of) would be expected to produce different figures.

So, let's take the one country you cherry picked, Hungary. The difference between the highest and lowest is quite high, and the set with the lowest also has the lowest extimate of the total.

Learn how these were calculated, and you will understand why this is such a silly argument, advanced to hide your gaffe about death threats being 94% effective -- except when they are against Jews, apparently, because each of them was a walking timebomb who would not have been able to be threatened.

If the Jews were that brave, why aren't you trying harder to emulate them?

Fail.
It should have been obvious to even you that I meant the sum of the disparities between lists of country totals.

 

[TSR]

Fail.
It should have been obvious to even you that I meant the sum of the disparities between lists of country totals.

Which differ by roughly 4%. Which is not millions. But you *did* say the individual countries varied by millions. Which they do not.

But nice way to show anyone who may have just started lurking that you handle your gaffes, such as individual countries varying by millions, the same way you handle the historicity of the Holocaust (and indeed, handle all the mistakes you make across the various threads you pollute): by lying about it and pretending it didn't happen.

Once again, the Jews could not be deterred by death threats, something you claim is effective 94% of the time, and yet you still have no desire to emulate this bravery -- preferring instead unsupported and unsupportable braggadocio about your intelligence.

 

[LemmyCaution]

What a strange, disorganized and incompetent Hoax that can't even train its docents decently enough that they toe the party line in their tour narratives.

And this powerful evidence has you questioning the scholarship, Nessie? Seriously? Do you understand how weak this line of thought is?

 

[Nessie]

I am unhappy that there myths about the Holocaust that are commonly perceived as facts.

My comment about tour guides is only one example of that.

 

[Nessie]

Such as ... ?

With all due respect -- no one ever has all the answers to all of the details of *any* historical event.

Only some? Which of their techniques are not? And can you provide an example of a relevant question posed by a denier?

Can you define "the orthodox side" and offer us examples of any individual fitting that definition who has "hidden behind the law"?

Which historian or researcher has endorsed this idea?

You mean the mistaken ones whose fatal flaw has pretty much always been known in the West and so has never had any effect on the historicity of the Holocaust?

Because? What relevant detail would this provide which is not already known by other means?

Can you cite the actual textbooks involved?

I think we are at cross purposes here. I am talking about general public knowledge of the Holocaust, which is poor, whereas you are talking about scholarly research.

I think that one thing revisionism has been right about is getting a more accurate knowledge of the Holocaust into the public domain. But it got it very wrong as to how to do that and what is the correct information.

 

[cwporter]

And yet Germany and Germans, the place and people which should be the most in agreement with Holocaust 'revisionism', instead reject it and even today are still publishing research works which continue to demonstrate the reality of the Holocaust.

It is always a pleasure to deal with an expert. I wonder if you could assist me?
I am unable to locate the following items of Holocaust evidentiary material in any archive:
- 1 steam chamber (IMT XXXII 153-158, III 567);
- 1 electrical chamber (IMT VII 576-577, XII 369);
- 1 German atomic bomb (for instant cremation work at Auschwitz) (IMT XVI 529);
- 1 tree (used as murder weapon) (IMT VII 582);
- 1 portable oven (IMT VII 586);
- 1 pedal-driven brain bashing machine (IMT VII 376-377);
- 1 bone-grinding machine (IMT VII 439, 549-550, 446, 593);
- 1 spanking machine (IMT VI 213);
- 1 lampshade of human skin (IMT XXXII 258, 259, 261, 263, 265, 269);
- 1 pocket book and 1 pair of driving gloves, all of human skin (IMT XXX 352, 355);
- 1 pornographic picture painted on canvas of human skin (IMT XXX 469);
- 1 book bound in human skin (IMT VI 331);
- 1 saddle, 1 pair of riding breeches, 1 glove, 1 house slipper, 1 ladies' handbag, all of human skin (IMT V 171);
- 1 torture box (disguised as an ordinary wardrobe) (IMT XVI 561, 546, 556-557);
- 1 chair stuffed with human hair (IMT XIX 506);
- 1 mattress stuffed with human hair (IMT I, 252)
- 1 pair of human hair socks (IMT XXXIX 552-553, XX 353
- 1 jar of human soap (IMT VII 597-601);
- 1 piece of tanned human skin.
We know these objects existed, because they were "proven" at Nuremberg by means of "official documents" and "sworn statements". But nobody knows where any of it is. Since most of the evidence is of Soviet origin, could it be in Moscow? Please advise. I should be most grateful for any assistance in this matter.

 

[TSR]

I am unhappy that there myths about the Holocaust that are commonly perceived as facts.

My comment about tour guides is only one example of that.

It wasn't *your* comment it was made by one of our resident deniers with a habit of playing fast and loose with the facts and uncritically offered by you as proof of something no one here disputes, namely there are myths about many, if not most historical events, of which my mentioning the Roman twins is only one.

Explicitly: is it only the myths surrounding the Holocaust with which you have issue, and what is your solution? Because frankly, your personal happiness is not our responsibility.

 

[TSR]

I think we are at cross purposes here. I am talking about general public knowledge of the Holocaust, which is poor, whereas you are talking about scholarly research.

The general public actually has very little knowledge of the Holocaust, WWII or really *any* history.

To take another example, your run-of-the-mill man on the street in the US believes that the Declaration of Independence was signed by everyone on the Fourth of July (assuming they can hazard a guess on the matter at all), but the reality is that the last signatory -- Matthew Thornton of New Hampshire -- did not affix his name until November fourth of that year.

I think that one thing revisionism has been right about is getting a more accurate knowledge of the Holocaust into the public domain. But it got it very wrong as to how to do that and what is the correct information.

Except for the teeny tiny fact that denial does not offer a more accurate knowledge. In fact, to a man or woman, they advocate *lies* be accepted by the public.

Go ahead: name one more accurate relevant fact that has been researched and published by a denier.

We'll wait right here.

 

[TSR]

It is always a pleasure to deal with an expert. I wonder if you could assist me?
I am unable to locate the following items of Holocaust evidentiary material in any archive:
- 1 steam chamber (IMT XXXII 153-158, III 567);

Mentioned only in an indictment.

Tell me, was Hans Frank *convicted* of that charge?

We know these objects existed, because they were "proven" at Nuremberg by means of "official documents" and "sworn statements".

You're lying.

But nobody knows where any of it is. Since most of the evidence is of Soviet origin, could it be in Moscow? Please advise. I should be most grateful for any assistance in this matter.

No, the difference between an indictment and proof has been pointed out to you ad nauseum, and yet here you are, returning like a dog to your own vomit.

Why don't you *quote* the relevant sections here, rather than just hoping no one has the resources to actually call your bluff?

 

[Nessie]

It wasn't *your* comment it was made by one of our resident deniers with a habit of playing fast and loose with the facts and uncritically offered by you as proof of something no one here disputes, namely there are myths about many, if not most historical events, of which my mentioning the Roman twins is only one.

Explicitly: is it only the myths surrounding the Holocaust with which you have issue, and what is your solution? Because frankly, your personal happiness is not our responsibility.

One solution would be to go into Wikipedia, a top of the list source for general information and make sure it is accurate.

Quite frankly, I don't care you are even thinking about my personal happiness.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

[...]
As for numbers and gas chambers specifically here is an example of a popular source which is inaccurate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chamber
where under Nazi Germany it states "Some stationary gas chambers could kill 2,000 people at once." [...]"

[...] and does an historian know a 2000 capacity gas chamber?

"The four large gas chamber-crematorium buildings at Birkenau (Auschwitz II) were designed for murder on a truly industrial scale. The largest of them could gas 2,000 people at one time. Its gas chambers were located underground; the bodies were put on elevators to reach the crematoria directly above. These facilities were not completed until 1943."
From The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust, Professor Donald L. Nieuwyk, Professor Francis R. Nicosia , page 22 - via "Look Inside" on Amazon.com

What is the capacity of these Birkenau gas chambers according to other sources you've consulted?

 

[Nessie]

The general public actually has very little knowledge of the Holocaust, WWII or really *any* history.

To take another example, your run-of-the-mill man on the street in the US believes that the Declaration of Independence was signed by everyone on the Fourth of July (assuming they can hazard a guess on the matter at all), but the reality is that the last signatory -- Matthew Thornton of New Hampshire -- did not affix his name until November fourth of that year.


Except for the teeny tiny fact that denial does not offer a more accurate knowledge. In fact, to a man or woman, they advocate *lies* be accepted by the public.

Go ahead: name one more accurate relevant fact that has been researched and published by a denier.

We'll wait right here.

You are missing my point. If you want to raise the Declaration of Independence as an example, I would say there is another example of where, by making sure the schools and easily accessible sources of information have got it right, people will become less ignorant.

You seem to have an issue with getting more accurate information into the public domain. Why?

 

[Nessie]

"The four large gas chamber-crematorium buildings at Birkenau (Auschwitz II) were designed for murder on a truly industrial scale. The largest of them could gas 2,000 people at one time. Its gas chambers were located underground; the bodies were put on elevators to reach the crematoria directly above. These facilities were not completed until 1943."
From The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust, Professor Donald L. Nieuwyk, Professor Francis R. Nicosia , page 22 - via "Look Inside" on Amazon.com

What is the capacity of these Birkenau gas chambers according to other sources you've consulted?

Is there a general agreement that 2000 people at a time were gassed at Krema II? Or that that was even possible, because the capacity of the lift and ovens does not match the supposed capacity of the gas chamber.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

"The four large gas chamber-crematorium buildings at Birkenau (Auschwitz II) were designed for murder on a truly industrial scale. The largest of them could gas 2,000 people at one time. Its gas chambers were located underground; the bodies were put on elevators to reach the crematoria directly above. These facilities were not completed until 1943."
From The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust, Professor Donald L. Nieuwyk, Professor Francis R. Nicosia , page 22 - via "Look Inside" on Amazon.com]

What is the capacity of these Birkenau gas chambers according to other sources you've consulted?

List your sources.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I am unhappy that there myths about the Holocaust that are commonly perceived as facts.

My comment about tour guides is only one example of that.

There are myths about many historical events - and they are very often perpetuated at historical sites, installations, etc. I don't see why the Holocaust would be different - low paid, undertrained interns and guides doing the best they can with what they got hardly constitutes a scandal. I've been to Holocaust museums and heard some strange statements, but I've also heard strange statements at places like Chaco Canyon, Gettysburg battlefield, Old Sturbridge Village and Plimoth Plantation. Should they do better? Sure. In the scheme of things, however, unless this is your focal point, the study of commemoration and popular historical representation, is it really the problem deniers try making it? I don't think so - and if you want to elevate it, at least look at the issue comparatively.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think we are at cross purposes here. I am talking about general public knowledge of the Holocaust, which is poor, whereas you are talking about scholarly research.

I think that one thing revisionism has been right about is getting a more accurate knowledge of the Holocaust into the public domain. But it got it very wrong as to how to do that and what is the correct information.

And yet recently you've seen an example of a historian, Martin Broszat, doing just what you say deniers do. Historians make an effort - giving time and effort to educational media, for example - to get accurate knowledge out. Most of them, after all, are teachers - and teaching and research is where they are skilled and most effective. But they do work outside academia and the classroom - e.g., Rees, Sturdy Colls. However, they don't control the media, and reporters, etc., are not well versed in this stuff - and the folks who do decide what the media report go in for headlines and drama. That said, one thing deniers do not do, contrary to their puffery and your naive acceptance of it, is get more accurate information into the public domain - they don't want that, they don't advocate it, and they don't do it. They try to promote lies and disinformation, to put it crudely.

 

[LemmyCaution]

One solution would be to go into Wikipedia, a top of the list source for general information and make sure it is accurate.

Quite frankly, I don't care you are even thinking about my personal happiness.

Or one could post in a forum dedicated to clarifying these issues? Or, like Nick Terry and others, they could write books and articles? Get serious, Nessie, there are many, many ways people can deal with what you're raising - and, in fact, you don't even know if any of us have edited Wikipedia articles, worked with museums, or done other things to promote understanding of the Holocaust, do you? Nor is it reasonable for you to suggest that we should be Wikipedia monitors . . . Given that historical myths about all kinds of topics are pervasive, to think a few people posting here and elsewhere could change that - and to hold us responsible for what proliferates around us, is grossly off base. It is hard to understand your issues on this topic.

 

[Nessie]

What is the capacity of these Birkenau gas chambers according to other sources you've consulted?

List your sources.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-08.html

"as is demonstrated by the following calculation for a single Krema, number II:

One gas chamber, about 210 square meters (2220 square feet) in area, easily accommodated a few hundred people, who were crammed into it. (See Section 2.16)"