Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Cylinder]

That is conflating terms that don't mean what you think they mean.

Neither handcuffing, transporting, or taking of voluntary statements is in and of itself illegal.

Investigative detention absent probable cause is prohibited by the immunity statute.

A person who uses force as permitted...is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force... As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

The responding officers termed Zimmerman's transport to be "investigative detention."

I'm not conflating any terms and have read the statue many times - as have you. Are you claiming that investigative detention is allowed - presumably absent probable cause?

Reasonable people can disagree about meanings or interpretations. I am quite open to having my errors pointed out. Hell - I prefer it.

So, which term am I misunderstanding?

 

[LTC8K6]

Did he follow?

Yes.

Stop talking to me like I'm a child. I understand what police questioning is all about.

Semantics, imo.

If you want to call it following or pursuing, you can.

You don't have to, though.

 

[Rare Truth]

How?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Another thing on the money raised from the website portion of this thing: in one of the conversations between Zimmerman and his wife, he instructs her to use the money raised for his legal defense to pay off credit card bills, and she observes that when this is all done he will have a nice life (in the context, implying that the money they raised from the web plea will give them a nice life). He agrees even emphasizing that "we" will have a nice life (not just him).

I'm not aware of the conditions of the fund-raising, but if it was raised for the expressed purpose of legal defense fees, then it seems they were planning to commit fraud. They were apparently planning to use a public defender (telling the court that they were not aware of any other money at their disposal they could use for the defense), and then keep all that money for other purposes.

I think it will be interesting to hear what the Zimmerman's say they were thinking when they deceived the court about that money. Originally I thought they might simply say that they thought the money could only be used for legal fees and not for posting bond, but they certainly can't make that claim given these conversations.

 

[Cylinder]

Did he follow?

Yes.

Stop talking to me like I'm a child. I understand what police questioning is all about.

I'm not trying to talk to you like a child, I apologize. You seemed to be posting the statement like it meant something or supported your argument. I was just trying to point out that was not the case.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Another thing on the money raised from the website portion of this thing: in one of the conversations between Zimmerman and his wife, he instructs her to use the money raised for his legal defense to pay off credit card bills, and she observes that when this is all done he will have a nice life (in the context, implying that the money they raised from the web plea will give them a nice life). He agrees even emphasizing that "we" will have a nice life (not just him).

I'm not aware of the conditions of the fund-raising, but if it was raised for the expressed purpose of legal defense fees, then it seems they were planning to commit fraud. They were apparently planning to use a public defender (telling the court that they were not aware of any other money at their disposal they could use for the defense), and then keep all that money for other purposes.

I think it will be interesting to hear what the Zimmerman's say they were thinking when they deceived the court about that money. Originally I thought they might simply say that they thought maybe the money could only be used for legal fees and not for posting bond, but they certainly can't make that claim given these conversations.

You might want to check that out before playing what if, then ?

 

[LTC8K6]

Serino seems to inform Singleton that it's a self defense case and orders her to remove GZ's cuffs before she interviews him.

 

[LTC8K6]

How?

Well, if GZ has that sort of pull for such cover-ups, why is he in jail?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Semantics, imo.

If you want to call it following or pursuing, you can.

You don't have to, though.

You say that as if "semantics" means it's not the issue or somehow not a problem with Zimmerman's statement.

If he claimed he wasn't following him, but just going the same direction as him, he is making a specific claim--one that seems to me to be inconsistent with the transcript of the conversation with the dispatcher.

(We would have to believe that even though he was very concerned about these **** getting away and that he admitted he had been following Martin, he suddenly let go of that motivation and just moved around at random in a way that purely coincidentally happened to be the same way Martin was going.)

 

[Cylinder]

So why aren't some posters questioning why Zimmerman's reenactment is too close to the T? He seems to be off like 10' or more.

 

[LTC8K6]

Another thing on the money raised from the website portion of this thing: in one of the conversations between Zimmerman and his wife, he instructs her to use the money raised for his legal defense to pay off credit card bills, and she observes that when this is all done he will have a nice life (in the context, implying that the money they raised from the web plea will give them a nice life). He agrees even emphasizing that "we" will have a nice life (not just him).

I'm not aware of the conditions of the fund-raising, but if it was raised for the expressed purpose of legal defense fees, then it seems they were planning to commit fraud. They were apparently planning to use a public defender (telling the court that they were not aware of any other money at their disposal they could use for the defense), and then keep all that money for other purposes.

I think it will be interesting to hear what the Zimmerman's say they were thinking when they deceived the court about that money. Originally I thought they might simply say that they thought the money could only be used for legal fees and not for posting bond, but they certainly can't make that claim given these conversations.

Maybe they don't think they were deceiving the court?

That sounds like a "beating your wife" question.

 

[LTC8K6]

You say that as if "semantics" means it's not the issue or somehow not a problem with Zimmerman's statement.

If he claimed he wasn't following him, but just going the same direction as him, he is making a specific claim--one that seems to me to be inconsistent with the transcript of the conversation with the dispatcher.

(We would have to believe that even though he was very concerned about these **** getting away and that he admitted he had been following Martin, he suddenly let go of that motivation and just moved around at random in a way that purely coincidentally happened to be the same way Martin was going.)

It's not a problem for me.

As I already said, it's a reasonable question.

I don't think it's a serious inconsistency.

 

[Rare Truth]

So why aren't some posters questioning why Zimmerman's reenactment is too close to the T? He seems to be off like 10' or more.

Way off.

Just there is so much to dig though in this pile of manure, it'll take awhile to get through it all. It was one of the first things I thought of.
That and the timeline not matching up at all.

(and thank you for your apology, accepted.)

 

[LTC8K6]

So why aren't some posters questioning why Zimmerman's reenactment is too close to the T? He seems to be off like 10' or more.

I think he left enough wiggle room for them to have moved south during the confrontation.

 

[Cylinder]

I think he left enough wiggle room for them to have moved south during the confrontation.

Yea, I'll have to reveiw the video. I've just done a first impression view. What's kind of bizzare is that we've probably spent more time at the T digitally than Zimmerman had at the time of the reenactment.

 

[Rare Truth]

I think he left enough wiggle room for them to have moved south during the confrontation.

In his first interview, he said TM punched him at the T and knocked him down then.

Then it changes later.

A blow that knocks you down in the first instance to something totally different later.

GAPING hole.

 

[Dancing David]

I think this one is the most damning:

http://gzlegalcase.com/documents/statements/audio_interview_0229_3.mp3

Interview with Serino and female officer, where they play the 911 tape for GZ, and ask him to explain each portion.

LOT"S of problems with his story there.

I listened to five minutes, where are these alleged problems?

 

[Unabogie]

In his first interview, he said TM punched him at the T and knocked him down then.

Then it changes later.

A blow that knocks you down in the first instance to something totally different later.

GAPING hole.

Right. In his re-enactment, he says something like "he punched me and I sort of staggered, I'm not sure how I got over here but" (paraphrasing). But in his original story, he went straight down.

Again, this is what the DA was referring to when he asked about multiple versions of the tale.

Here's another weird piece.

George claims he got on top of Trayvon and proceeded to hold his arms out away from his body as if to subdue him (after he was shot). He holds his arms wide and demonstrates. Wasn't Trayvon found with both his arms tucked under him?

Anyone else catch that?

 

[Mumbles]

I listened to five minutes, where are these alleged problems?

When did Zimmerman drive while on the phone with the cops?

Why did Zimmerman jump out and chase Martin, and state that he was following Martin, if he weren't following Martin?

If Zimmerman wanted a street name, why didn't he just drive to the corner?

When did the dispatcher instruct Zimmerman to keep an eye on Martin?

When did Zimmerman state that the cops should meet him by his SUV?

When on earth did Martin come out of the alley, circle Zimmerman's car, and then run back into the alley?

How did Zimmerman end up south of Martin, who had supposedly punched Zimmerman *frm* the south, and knocked him north?

When, prior to stating "he's running", did Zimmerman claim to have lost sight of Martin?

 

[crimresearch]

Investigative detention absent probable cause is prohibited by the immunity statute.

A person who uses force as permitted...is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force... As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

The responding officers termed Zimmerman's transport to be "investigative detention."

I'm not conflating any terms and have read the statue many times - as have you. Are you claiming that investigative detention is allowed - presumably absent probable cause?

Reasonable people can disagree about meanings or interpretations. I am quite open to having my errors pointed out. Hell - I prefer it.

So, which term am I misunderstanding?

'Reasonable people can disagree' is *not* how the law sets definitions, tests, and standards.
You are misunderstanding the blanket claim that 'the law prohibits' something that thousands of cops do legally everywhere in the country, (including Florida) day in and day out.

It isn't illegal by itself to transport someone to the station under the right circumstances. It isn't illegal to handcuff them while they are in the car, at the sallyport, waiting for the investigato,r and so on under the right circumstances.

Nowhere have I claimed that any of this applies absent probable cause, I'm pointing out the narrow exceptions the courts have allowed *after* there is an articulable suspicion or PC, or the other requisite factors.

And those narrow exceptions are where cops do their jobs.

The real world where cops take people into custody all the time, including handcufffs, and your assertionsthat it can't be done that way don't match... why should I refuse to believe the real world?