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Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

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Right, I've acknowledged that previously. The point is that the little lie has to fit the evidence. One can claim that a simple pause would have worked, but you have the screams. So you add the pause plus faked screams. Then you have the uncertainty of observation. No-one eyewitnessed the fatal shot, but W6 observed the fight seconds before the fatal shot. Guess what narrative that fits?

OK maybe he lied about who started the conversation. Wait, on the phone with DeeDee...

OK maybe Zimmerman landed the first blow. No marks on Martin...

OK maybe he made up the concrete claim. W6 saw them on the concrete...

OK maybe he lied about his path. Witnesses heard the altercation progress along the top of the T....

He wouldn't have had to punch Trayvon. He's apparently into shoving, so that could have easily happened. And it wouldn't leave a mark but would explain the fight and would incriminate George. All he'd have to do is leave that part out of his tale.
 
He wouldn't have had to punch Trayvon. He's apparently into shoving, so that could have easily happened. And it wouldn't leave a mark but would explain the fight and would incriminate George. All he'd have to do is leave that part out of his tale.

Are you willing to subject someone to a mandatory life sentence because they might have pushed someone?
 
Are you willing to subject someone to a mandatory life sentence because they might have pushed someone?

No, but I'm betting he lied a bunch and it won't be as close as you think. The guy is a mess. I bet his jail house money laundering wasn't the first time he thought he was being clever.
 
If Zimmerman stated he had no criminal history, he was correct.

That's not true. Zimmerman does have a criminal history. He assaulted a police officer and completed a pre-trial diversion program in lieu of a felony conviction.
 
Nonsense. 'Legal' was from the chief, not from me. Are you going into CT land now?

In the real world, 'on a personal errand' means exactly the opposite of in his NW 'role'. He was not acting in that role, and you've got nothing except desperate spinning at this point.
You can play that little semantic game all day if you like, however, as we have all seen, NW is a 24/7 eyes and ears role. There is no "punch in" or on the clock detail for members of the NW, and with GZ as "captain," whenever anything or anyone was deemed suspicious, then they are acting in the NW capacity.

HEck, flyers for the entire community were printed up by the Police with GZ's name on it to be the NW contact; they were posted up all over the common areas - they even had refrigerator magnets with Zimmerman's name on it, then 300 "contact cards" with Zimmerman's name on it.

znw2.jpg



In what strange world does a 24/7 person suddenly become absolved of a 24/7 duty he takes on just because he goes on an errand, when he himself calls in a suspicious person in his neighborhood - especially given he was no where near his own residence?

Make no mistake - the NW at Twin Lakes was George's baby. He was the father. On his way out on a trip to the store didn't make him any less a daddy to that baby.
 
If you lived at Twin Lakes, George would even give you updates, notifications and safety tips! [See second paragraph]

znw1.jpg


Word to the wise: Don't follow safety tips from George.
 
Are you willing to subject someone to a mandatory life sentence because they might have pushed someone?


I think it is more like "... pushed someone and then shot them to death." in this case.

After all, George didn't get threatened with a life sentence the last time he got buttonholed for shoving someone around, although picking a cop to do it to was kind of boneheaded.
 
I am interested in the claim that he was specifically asked about pre-trial diversion. If Zimmerman stated he had no criminal history, he was correct.
He was charged with Felony with violence.
Because he agreed, by order of the court, to attend anger management classes as an arrangement for first time offenders, does not make his criminal record go away.

It IS a matter of record.

Date he was arrested: 7/16/05
Date Filed: 7/18/05

<07/18/2005 Arrest Affidavit ARREST AFFIDAVIT FILED - DOA <07/16/2005>
>>

You'll have to enter "Zimmerman, George" here :

http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=5797428

to see that Felony WITH Violence...then reduction to a misdemeanor because he fulfilled a 6 month court-ordered gig.


Defendant
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL

DOB: 10/05/1983
ZAHRA SHANAZ UMANSKY, Esquire

Retained

407-228-3838(W) Plaintiff
STATE OF FLORIDA

Charge Information
Charges: ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL

Statute
Level
Date
1. CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE
843.02 First Degree - Misd0
7/14/2005 Events & Orders of the Court

OTHER EVENTS AND HEARINGS

07/28/2006 Nolle Prosequi NOLLE PROSEQUI COUNT 001
06/15/2006 PTD Program Agreement for Supervision

Extension
ORANGE CO. PTD AGGREEMENT FOR SUPERVISION EXT.
01/26/2006 Bond Discharged CLOSED BOND DISCHARGED #61766193
01/12/2006 Approval for Participation in PTD APPROVAL FOR PART.IN PTD
12/30/2005 Pre-Trial DefermentPRE-TRIAL DEFERMENT FILED
12/30/2005 Waiver of Speedy TrialWAIVER OF SPEEDY TRIAL FILED
11/22/2005 Notice Returned UnservedNOTICE RETURNED UNSERVED FILED
10/27/2005 Defendant Not PresentDEFENDANT NOT PRESENT
10/27/2005 In Open CourtIN OPEN COURT
10/27/2005 Appearance of Attorney EnteredAPPEAR. OF ATTORNEY ENTERED
10/27/2005 Per the Court:ORDERED FILED IN OPEN COURT*
10/27/2005 Defendant Referred to PreTrial DiversionDEF REFERRED TO PTD
10/27/2005 Case Held in AbeyanceCASE HELD IN ABEYANCE
10/27/2005 Waiver of Speedy TrialWAIVER OF SPEEDY TRIAL ANNOUNCED IN OPEN COURT
10/27/2005 Pre-Trial Conference (8:30 AM) () TRIAL PERIOD 10/31-11/09/05.
10/25/2005 Hearing (9:00 AM) () DEF'S MOTION TO COMPEL
10/17/2005 State's Witness ListSTATE'S WITNESS LIST FILED
10/17/2005 Notice of Filing of State's Discovery ExhibitNOTICE OF FILING STATE'S DISCOVERY EXHIBIT
10/07/2005 Notice of HearingNOTICE OF HEARING FILED <10/25/2005> 09:00 A.M.
10/06/2005 Motion to CompelMOTION TO COMPEL FILED
09/28/2005 Notice for Pre-TrialNOTICE FOR PRETRIAL RET: 10/27/2005
09/28/2005 Defendant Not PresentDEFENDANT NOT PRESENT
09/28/2005 In Open CourtIN OPEN COURT
09/28/2005 Counsel Not PresentATTY/PD NOT PRESENT
09/28/2005 Written Plea of Not GuiltyWRITTEN PLEA OF NOT GUILTY PREVIOUSLY ENTERED
09/28/2005 Arraignment (1:00 PM) () 09/28/2005 Arraignment (8:00 AM) () 09/27/2005 ArraignmentARRAIGNMENT SCHEDULED FOR 09/28/2005
09/06/2005 NoticeNOTICE OF ARRAIGNMENT ISSUED <09/28/2005> 01:00 P.M.
08/31/2005 Notice of AppearanceNOTICE OF APPEARANCE FILED ZAHRA S. UMANSKY
08/31/2005 Waiver of ArraignmentWAIVER OF ARRAIGNMENT
08/31/2005 Written Plea of Not GuiltyWRITTEN PLEA OF NOT GUILTY ENTERED
08/31/2005 Notice of Intent to Participate in DiscoveryNOTICE OF INTENT TO PARTICIPATE IN DISCOVERY
08/31/2005 Demand for Disclosure of Criminal RecordsDEMAND FOR DISCLOSURE OF CRIMINAL RECORDS
08/31/2005 Demand for Exculpatory InformationDEMAND FOR EXCULPATORY INFORMATION
08/30/2005 Complete Case TransferredCOMPLETE CASE TRANSFERRED FROM 05-CF-9525
08/30/2005 Bond FiledPOLAKOFF BOND FILED RET TBN #A061766193 $1000
08/29/2005 Information FiledINFORMATION FILED
Financial Information
Defendant ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL Total Financial Assessment 265.48 Total Payments and Credits 265.48 Balance Due as of 03/26/2012 0.00 08/07/2006 Transaction Assessment 7.5008/07/2006 Payment Added for Conversion Only Receipt # 5000386023 SEALED (7.50)03/12/2012 Transaction Assessment 1.0003/12/2012 Counter Payment Receipt # CR-2012-13569 MEDIA (1.00)03/22/2012 Transaction Assessment 180.9903/22/2012 Counter Payment Receipt # CR-2012-15164 JOHN F. COUWELS (180.99)03/22/2012 Transaction Assessment 20.0003/22/2012 Counter Payment Receipt # CR-2012-15191 MEDIA (20.00)03/23/2012 Transaction Assessment 55.9903/23/2012 Counter Payment Receipt # CR-2012-15477 BARBARA J. LISTON (55.99)
 
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Nonsense. 'Legal' was from the chief, not from me. Are you going into CT land now?

In the real world, 'on a personal errand' means exactly the opposite of in his NW 'role'. He was not acting in that role, and you've got nothing except desperate spinning at this point.
You can play that little semantic game all day if you like, however, as we have all seen, NW is a 24/7 eyes and ears role. There is no "punch in" or on the clock detail for members of the NW, and with GZ as "captain," whenever anything or anyone was deemed suspicious, then they are acting in the NW capacity.

<snip>

Crimresearch seems to be trying to characterize a Neighborhood Watch as some sort of Neighborhood Patrol. I'm not sure if this is merely to advance his argument or because he actually believes that, but the idea is more of a Hollywood stereotype than a reflection of what law enforcement would like for people to be doing.

I see it as a form of training which enables people to act more effectively if they happen across a problem situation and need to do something before trained professionals can get there. Apparently the most salient parts of the Neighborhood Watch training somehow managed to escape George's grasp.

I've been trained in first aid and CPR (many times) but I never had the impression that it meant I was supposed to drive around on a beat looking for people who had hurt themselves or keeled over from a heart attack.

I don't think participation in a Neighborhood Watch is much different, except to wannabes who use it as an excuse to play dress-up and swagger around the neighborhood with dangerous toys.

One area where I disagree with crimresearch is that the training which George did receive, whether it sunk in or not, puts a higher burden of responsibility on him to act appropriately than if he had not had it at all. I do agree that there might not have been any statutory obligations as a result of that training, but he is less able to make any plausible claim that he didn't know which actions were appropriate and which ones weren't. This can and should be taken into consideration when he is being tried.

He had to know, due to that training, that as soon as he climbed out of his vehicle that evening he was on a path across the line between 'watching' and 'engaging'. The dispatcher's admonishments only reinforced that knowledge.

I am not suggesting that this somehow establishes his guilt or innocence as far as the charges placed against him are concerned, only that it is not unreasonable to acknowledge that training when evaluating his responsibility.
 
Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account - that he had acted in self-defense.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency

Mr. Zimmerman's claim is that the confrontation was initiated by Trayvon. I am not going into specifics of what led to the violent physical encounter witnessed by residents. All the physical evidence and testimony we have independent of what Mr. Zimmerman provides corroborates this claim to self-defense.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446_p2/trayvon-martin-case.html

How did we get away from these strong statements, made in mid-March?

As far as I can tell, no new evidence was uncovered.

They must be basing the M2 decision on Dee Dee.

Which is hard to believe.
 
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No. It doesn't. I seriously don't think you understand what those words mean.

Standard of care is a requirement to follow acceptable courses of treatment to a reasonable degree.

Duty of care is for those in a position of authority over others to set such a standard.

George was in no position of authority over Trayvon, or anyone else, and even those who do hold such positions don't give up the right to defend their lives.

Thanks, I am aware of the terms only poorly.

Such as they are applied loosely in discussion of drunk driving. A reasonable individual should know that getting drunk impairs ability and therefore they are responsible for their action if they get drunk and drive.

Apparently I was using the term incorrectly.
 
You can play that little semantic game all day if you like, however, as we have all seen, NW is a 24/7 eyes and ears role.
Are you contending a NW member is prohibited from also having a concealed carry license?
 
Are you contending a NW member is prohibited from also having a concealed carry license?
There isn't even the slightest hint of that contention, or even any implication of that in my posts, so you may remove that from your strawman index card set.
 
Crimresearch seems to be trying to characterize a Neighborhood Watch as some sort of Neighborhood Patrol. I'm not sure if this is merely to advance his argument or because he actually believes that, but the idea is more of a Hollywood stereotype than a reflection of what law enforcement would like for people to be doing.

I see it as a form of training which enables people to act more effectively if they happen across a problem situation and need to do something before trained professionals can get there. Apparently the most salient parts of the Neighborhood Watch training somehow managed to escape George's grasp.

I've been trained in first aid and CPR (many times) but I never had the impression that it meant I was supposed to drive around on a beat looking for people who had hurt themselves or keeled over from a heart attack.

I don't think participation in a Neighborhood Watch is much different, except to wannabes who use it as an excuse to play dress-up and swagger around the neighborhood with dangerous toys.

One area where I disagree with crimresearch is that the training which George did receive, whether it sunk in or not, puts a higher burden of responsibility on him to act appropriately than if he had not had it at all. I do agree that there might not have been any statutory obligations as a result of that training, but he is less able to make any plausible claim that he didn't know which actions were appropriate and which ones weren't. This can and should be taken into consideration when he is being tried.

He had to know, due to that training, that as soon as he climbed out of his vehicle that evening he was on a path across the line between 'watching' and 'engaging'. The dispatcher's admonishments only reinforced that knowledge.

I am not suggesting that this somehow establishes his guilt or innocence as far as the charges placed against him are concerned, only that it is not unreasonable to acknowledge that training when evaluating his responsibility.
Well said.
 
Yelling help does not contradict or prevent the "what if" scenario I presented in any way at all. It could have all went down like that no matter what Z was saying during that time.

He could have been singing a song and it still went down like that.

I seriously don't understand why you think Z saying a word has anything at all to do with the "what if" scenario that was presented.

My only conclusion can be that you for whatever reason do not want to believe it.


Fight occurs.

M is winning handedly.

Z finally gets gun.

M sees it and gives up.

Z yells help one final time and shoots him anyway.


It is very showing that you want this scenario to not be possible by using such an obscure argument as "It couldn't have happened because Z was vocalizing with his mouth at the time!".

ETA: And just in case anyone not following the thread tries to jump to conclusions I will add this disclaimer for the Nth time:

I'll concede that your scenario is possible, but it does not fit the criteria where GZ can easily lie and his story is still plausible, which is one of the criteria of making up a successful lie to CYA.
 
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