Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Natural Born Skeptic]

They fight for the 60 to 90 seconds from the end of Z's not911 call to the gunshot.

M is handedly winning the fight.

A few seconds before the shot Z pulls out his gun.

M sees the gun and immediately gives up.

Z shoots him anyway.

In that scenario all Z would have to do is not tell the M gave up part.

Remember, this is in response to all of the people who say "Z is too stupid to have not told the truth that night" or "Z is too stupid to make up such a tight story".

Leaving out one or two minor (but very important) details takes little to no thought or effort.

This is the most believable alternate scenario I've heard so far. I don't see how it could be proven though...

And therein lies the rub. Of course it's possible that GZ is lying about some element. But unless you've got strong evidence you don't convict someone on "possible". However many here who evidently have psychic powers have no need for evidence, the only evidence they need is thinking that know who GZ is, and being convinced he's a liar.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge it's possible he's lying. Are they willing to acknowledge he could be telling the truth? Because I've seen no such acknowledgment.

 

[Noztradamus]

The dispatcher asks GZ which entrance TM is running towards.

One could take that as a need to go and see.

Especially if TM is out of sight at that point.

Or the operator is simply asking George to confirm and clarify the meaning of his previous phrase of "the other entrance".

An interpretation which makes more sense than "You're a Deputy!"

 

[Rare Truth]

Ah yes, well that is why I suspect the condo association newsletters are in evidence. I am guessing that GZ tried to start a Neighborhood Watch group and that he attended training. Now this may or may not be true, in which case the prosecution's case will diminish.

However if a reasonable person goes to a training and even gets trained to be a trainer and leader, and one of the main messages of that training is:
-we only call , we do not follow, we do not intervene

Then it might be that a reasonable person with that training and knowledge would know what is called 'the standard of care' and might be seen as needing to meet it.

Now if GZ had that training and knowledge and if it would be reasonable under FL law, I have no idea.

The Retreat @ Twin Lakes Newsletters and the SPD NW Guidebook is part of the discovery dump. There is a good reason they are there.

Straight from the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch directive:

Sanford Police Department

In big bold-up fonts the above words there INSIST people are not to " get physically involved with any activity you report or apprehen[d] any suspicious persons."

They do that in not only one area of the NW Guidelines, but twice.
In BOLD letters.

We KNOW Zimmerman was told by police this, as Z was the one who helped facilitate the NW meeting with the Sanford Police Chief for guidelines, and as contact and Captain would necessarily need to be informed of the rules, as well as relay them to other residents:

Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter -Sept 2011:
George Zimmerman's name listed as contact & that Chief Lee was coming to next meeting:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/69888406/RTL-Newsletter-September-2011-FINAL

Feb 2012 Twin Lakes at Retreat news letter - George Zimmerman identified as Captain.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/83085579/RTL-February-2012-Newsletter

SFP -meeting with residents after shooting - Relaying Zimmerman was acting as NW at the time.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/83265458/Sanford-PD-Meeting

^^^All part of the prosecution evidence.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Straight from the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch directive:

Well, it sure is a good thing than that GZ says he neither attempted to apprehend nor did he attempt to get physically involved with TM.

 

[WildCat]

Well, we have his ole bud Chief Lee telling this version of Z's story:

“If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody? It’s not.” -Resigned, unresigned Police Chief Lee, on the Trayvon Martin incident, March 15, 2012

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446_p2_trayvon-martin-case.html

Did Martin ask Zimmerman anything prior to that, or do you think Zimmerman's story is that he spoke those words to Martin first?

 

[Rare Truth]

Well, it sure is a good thing than that GZ says he neither attempted to apprehend nor did he attempt to get physically involved with TM.

He became physically involved when he got out of his truck and started following him.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, it sure is a good thing than that GZ says he neither attempted to apprehend nor did he attempt to get physically involved with TM.

You might want to give it another read.

What it says is to not "get physically involved in any activity you report". Zimmerman reported a suspicious person walking around his neighborhood. Then he got out of his car to follow that suspicious person. That is quite clearly getting "physically involved" in the activity he reported.

 

[Rare Truth]

Did Martin ask Zimmerman anything prior to that, or do you think Zimmerman's story is that he spoke those words to Martin first?

You'll have to ask the resigned, unresigned, now Captain Scarce, Chief Lee.

He's the one that drove that narrative.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

You might want to give it another read.

What it says is to not "get physically involved in any activity you report". Zimmerman reported a suspicious person walking around his neighborhood. Then he got out of his car to follow that suspicious person. That is quite clearly getting "physically involved" in the activity he reported.

I disagree with your interpretation, but that's not the point.

NW rules also clearly state you can't be armed. GZ was armed and it was determined he was acting in the capacity of the NW (whatever that means, exactly.)

The point is "So what?"

How does 'violating' NW rules that are not legally enforceable matter as to whether GZ is innocent or not ?

 

[WildCat]

He became physically involved when he got out of his truck and started following him.

I don't think that term means what you think it means.

 

[Dan O.]

Was GZ acting as NW at the time, or was he on his own time? Were there NW "shifts"? If so, was GZ on one?

The Retreat @ Twin Lakes Newsletters and the SPD NW Guidebook is part of the discovery dump. There is a good reason they are there.

Straight from the Sanford PD Neighborhood Watch directive:

[qimg]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/who007/nw.jpg[/qimg]

Sanford Police Department

There appears to be something about the neighborhood watch schedual and shift times in that clipping that would answer your question but it is partially obscured by the yellow arrow. Can anyone make that out or is there an original that is any clearer?

 

[Rare Truth]

There appears to be something about the neighborhood watch schedual and shift times in that clipping that would answer your question but it is partially obscured by the yellow arrow. Can anyone make that out or is there an original that is any clearer?

You see that link you quoted that said Sanford Police Department?

Click that. It's 24/7 eyes and ears. (the word behind the arrow is "leads.")

No shifts. No organized "patrols." Wendy Dorival, the Sanford Police Dept. NW organizer did a Powerpoint presentation at R@TL meetings with some of this stuff.

 

[Rare Truth]

I don't think that term means what you think it means.

You're free to not think that. Most people however, understand what it means.

 

[WildCat]

You'll have to ask the resigned, unresigned, now Captain Scarce, Chief Lee.

He's the one that drove that narrative.

Why? Wasn't this part known months ago?

Did Martin, for example, ask Zimmerman "do you have a problem"?

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

What was the full context of Lee's quote? Did he claim Zimmerman said that, or was he answering a specific question with that as a premise?

 

[WildCat]

I disagree with your interpretation, but that's not the point.

NW rules also clearly state you can't be armed. GZ was armed and it was determined he was acting in the capacity of the NW (whatever that means, exactly.)

The point is "So what?"

How does 'violating' NW rules that are not legally enforceable matter as to whether GZ is innocent or not ?

Can you explain this? How was Zimmerman acting under the auspices of the NW rather than acting on his own behalf as everyone is allowed to do?

Does joining an informal neighborhood watch program somehow decrease your rights as a citizen?

 

[johnny karate]

I disagree with your interpretation, but that's not the point.

NW rules also clearly state you can't be armed. GZ was armed and it was determined he was acting in the capacity of the NW (whatever that means, exactly.)

The point is "So what?"

How does 'violating' NW rules that are not legally enforceable matter as to whether GZ is innocent or not ?

The argument was made that Zimmerman might have thought the dispatcher wanted him to follow Martin. The neighborhood watch material demonstrates that he knew better.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

The police decided determined he was acting in the capacity of the NW.

I'm not sure how.

Can you explain this? How was Zimmerman acting under the auspices of the NW rather than acting on his own behalf as everyone is allowed to do?

Does joining an informal neighborhood watch program somehow decrease your rights as a citizen?

Not a clue how he was acting as the NW.

 

[WildCat]

Not a clue how he was acting as the NW.

Oh, do tell...

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

He became physically involved when he got out of his truck and started following him.

You forgot to preface your statement with "in fantasy land".

 

[crimresearch]

Ah yes, well that is why I suspect the condo association newsletters are in evidence. I am guessing that GZ tried to start a Neighborhood Watch group and that he attended training. Now this may or may not be true, in which case the prosecution's case will diminish.

However if a reasonable person goes to a training and even gets trained to be a trainer and leader, and one of the main messages of that training is:
-we only call , we do not follow, we do not intervene

Then it might be that a reasonable person with that training and knowledge would know what is called 'the standard of care' and might be seen as needing to meet it.

Now if GZ had that training and knowledge and if it would be reasonable under FL law, I have no idea.

Somewhere in the early part of this thread, a link was made to a police department liason saying that she told George during NW orientation that he could only observe and report.

None of that comes even close to being training, none of it confers any duty of care, (which wouldn't be any sort of issue in this case anyway), and it is all rendered moot by the simple fact that George was on a personal errand at the time.

The papers initially made a big deal about his non-existent rank of 'Captain', and the non-existent authority of the Neighborhood Watch, but I wouldn't read too much into it.