Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[Rare Truth]

Zimmerman wanted Shellie to buy a bulletproof vest:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/new...-instructing-wife-transfers/?CID=happeningnow

Was he going to try and shoot her too?


;-p

 

[Nessie]

That sounds rather extreme that in the UK, all uses of deadly force were prosecuted as crimes.

You have a dozen witnesses and video tape that a career criminal starts stabbing someone, and if the victim succeeds in defending themselves while the would be killer dies, the victims are automatically arrested and thrown in jail until they prevail against the prosecution at a criminal trial?

No middle ground, no hearing, arraignment, writs of habeas corpus, etc?

Your made up scenario is an extreme which would not have resulted in the prosecution of the victim. The reality is far more likely to be this......

The vast majority of self defense claim are prosecuted and convicted in the US as well - since the vast majority are half baked, post hoc excuses for criminals who are caught red-handed, couldn't handle the strain of interrogation by police or thought they were smarter than a seasoned homicide investigator.

"It was self-defense. I went in to rob the guy and he drew on me."

Many a self defence claim is made by both parties who have had a fight with each other, or to excuse giving someone a beating after they assaulted another.

Furthermore deaths are rare here as we do not arm ourselves like the US does and are less likely to accept a death as reasonable force.

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

Your made up scenario is an extreme which would not have resulted in the prosecution of the victim. The reality is far more likely to be this...

What makes you think our system doesn't accommodate the made-up claim and the more common claim? We have way too much violence in our country, of that there is no doubt, but last I noticed a bunch of people weren't killing other people, claiming self-defense, and riding off merrily into the sunset. If you kill someone you can be damn sure it's going to be investigated and you're not going to get off just because you claimed self-defense.

 

[Nessie]

What makes you think our system doesn't accommodate the made-up claim and the more common claim? We have way too much violence in our country, of that there is no doubt, but last I noticed a bunch of people weren't killing other people, claiming self-defense, and riding off merrily into the sunset. If you kill someone you can be damn sure it's going to be investigated and you're not going to get off just because you claimed self-defense.

True, but there is evidence from studies and examples of claims of self defence that say many such claims are dubious to say the least. I have previously linked to studies and linked to the death of a Scot in Texas. There was a similar case with a Japanese student who was shot whilst out during Halloween dressed as Elvis. Japan and Scotland will never understand how those two posed a deadly threat such that the shooter was not prosecuted in either case.

 

[Cylinder]

True, but there is evidence from studies and examples of claims of self defence that say many such claims are dubious to say the least. I have previously linked to studies and linked to the death of a Scot in Texas. There was a similar case with a Japanese student who was shot whilst out during Halloween dressed as Elvis. Japan and Scotland will never understand how those two posed a deadly threat such that the shooter was not prosecuted in either case.

If we're referring to the same one, in both of those cases the deceased were seen as trying to force entry into a home at night. It's not something you do in the United States.

 

[crimresearch]

I guess I wasn't exactly clear when I made that statement. Unless there is overwhelming evidence that it concerns a case of self-defense, it should be tried in a court of law. Even then, I'd ideally would like see all such cases reviewed by an independent party.

Well, it is unclear to use words like 'automatically', and 'all uses', when you mean 'sometimes under specific circumstances'.

Especially when the latter is already the case in the US, which you claim should be done away with, and replaced with the former.

 

[Nessie]

If we're referring to the same one, in both of those cases the deceased were seen as trying to force entry into a home at night. It's not something you do in the United States.

"Seen" by a rather forgiving legal system that was very biased towards the rights of the shooters right to self defence over the deceased's right to life.

Forcing entry into someone's home at night is also not acceptable in the UK. Being drunk and banging on a back door is also not acceptable. Dressing as Elvis is fine. The difference is using deadly force first and asking questions later is unacceptable in the UK.

In Martin's case, the two above and my own experience it appears there is a very high level of risk is assumed by the unarmed person, in that not particularly risky behavouir is seen as worthy of a deadly response.

Were there any warning signs at the community, such as 'Warning Armed Citizens on Patrol', 'Warning due to thefts armed response in area' or anything like that?

I do not see how people, particularly unfamiliar with an area are supposed to know the risks and so their actions assume a greater level of risk than they would be reasonably expected to know.

 

[WildCat]

Wow, listening to those tapes today all I can think is that Zimmerman and his wife are 2 of the dumbest people in Florida.

Which makes me think it's even less likely that he made up such a tight story on the spot the night of the shooting.

 

[Cylinder]

Wow, listening to those tapes today all I can think is that Zimmerman and his wife are 2 of the dumbest people in Florida.

Which makes me think it's even less likely that he made up such a tight story on the spot the night of the shooting.

Authoratative voice, eh?

 

[Kaosium]

So anyone who believes the actual legal facts over your opinions, is lying or pig headed ignorant, because you don't need authories, you could just show them, but it would take over 100 pages to prove them wrong?

Did I get that right?

Because I'd hate to misunderstand you.

Not quite, and I wasn't referring to anyone here. I'm just saying an examination of the APC and the evidence ought to reveal something, and if there's 'legal analysts' going on TV saying that Murder 2 is justified by either, they're lying to themselves at least. Probably thinking something can be mined from his police statements, despite the Sanford police finding they matched the evidence and the other witness statements. I'm not going to spend a hundred pages on it though, it's not worth it.

 

[johnny karate]

Wow, listening to those tapes today all I can think is that Zimmerman and his wife are 2 of the dumbest people in Florida.

Which makes me think it's even less likely that he made up such a tight story on the spot the night of the shooting.

That's because he probably didn't.

To change "I confronted him" to "He confronted me" or "I grabbed his arm and he punched me" to "He punched me for no reason" doesn't take some amazing fabulist, only a liar being true to his nature.

 

[Cylinder]

Zimmerman uses the word hoodie Starts around 12:00

ZIMMERMAN: We could have two cars. We could have two rented cars.

SHELLIE: That’s true. The one that we’re gonna drive in.

ZIMMERMAN: Mm hmm.

SHELLIE: So leave mine home.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah.

SHELLIE: Get the one that we’re gonna drive in, and then get the SUV, I don't know if they black out SUV’s though (Voices blended, inaudible)

ZIMMERMAN: Doesn’t matter.

SHELLIE: Oh, okay. ’Cause you could always like lay down or something.

ZIMMERMAN: Yeah, exactly. Well, I have my hoodie.

SHELLIE: Mm hmm, mm hmm. So.

 

[Giz]

True, but there is evidence from studies and examples of claims of self defence that say many such claims are dubious to say the least. I have previously linked to studies and linked to the death of a Scot in Texas. There was a similar case with a Japanese student who was shot whilst out during Halloween dressed as Elvis. Japan and Scotland will never understand how those two posed a deadly threat such that the shooter was not prosecuted in either case.

One appeared to be a home invader, the other a zombie. How much more casus belli do you need?

 

[Kaosium]

That's because he probably didn't.

To change "I confronted him" to "He confronted me" or "I grabbed his arm and he punched me" to "He punched me for no reason" doesn't take some amazing fabulist, only a liar being true to his nature.

Those guys get caught by trained interrogators and tripped up by the evidence.

Incidentally, where did he lie?

 

[Unabogie]

Those guys get caught by trained interrogators and tripped up by the evidence.

Incidentally, where did he lie?

What's his current address?

 

[Rare Truth]

Those guys get caught by trained interrogators and tripped up by the evidence.

Incidentally, where did he lie?

And that seems to be the case here.

 

[Dan O.]

Please explain what "approach from behind" versus "approach from the front" injuries look like after a fist fight. I'd be very curious to know.

Please explain why you changed the words I used.

 

[Kaosium]

What's his current address?

Where he's proving the prosecution was wrong with their dingy theory he was gonna run.

And that seems to be the case here.

Actually if you'll recall the police decided his story matched the evidence. They went at him three times about it, including with a voice stress analyzer.

 

[This is The End]

Wow, listening to those tapes today all I can think is that Zimmerman and his wife are 2 of the dumbest people in Florida.

Which makes me think it's even less likely that he made up such a tight story on the spot the night of the shooting.

What if M gave up when Z got his gun out, yet Z still shot him.... and everything else is as we know it so far.

In that case Z would just have to leave out the part about M giving up first.

That doesn't exactly take a genius to think up and follow through with.

 

[johnny karate]

Where he's proving the prosecution was wrong with their dingy theory he was gonna run.

When did the prosecution propose that theory? Cite, please.

Actually if you'll recall the police decided his story matched the evidence. They went at him three times about it, including with a voice stress analyzer.

To say that the police believed Zimmerman's story as opposed to being unable to disprove it are wholly separate things. Remind me again, when did the police come out and say the believed Zimmerman?