• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Gulp! NYC Mayor Proposes Super-Sized Soda Ban.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03...gain-nyc-bans-food-donations-to-the-homeless/

This sort of nanny stuff is just the way it is in NYC.

I can only assume the citizens are in agreement with it, since Bloomberg still has a job.

What should the citizens of NYC do? Go to war? The mayor and his cronies overrode a voter's referendum that limited NYC politicians to two four-year terms. This was challenged in the federal courts and the Federal judges ruled against the challengers. All that the citizens of NYC could do (peacefully, anyway) was vote to reinstate the term limits again. And as for voting for Bloomberg again -- you can't vote for another strong candidate unless strong candidates choose to run. Well, you could write one in on your ballot, but that's not an effective or easy way to get someone into office.

Terms and term limits (since 1834)

Direct elections to the mayoralty of the unconsolidated City of New York began in 1834 for a term of one year, extended to two years after 1849. The 1897 Charter of the consolidated City doubled the term to four years which could not be renewed. In 1901, the term limit was removed, but the term halved to two years. In 1905, the four-year term, without limit, was restored. (Mayors Fiorello La Guardia, Robert F. Wagner, Jr. and Ed Koch were later able to serve for twelve years each.) [1] In 1993, the voters approved a two-term (eight-year) limit, and reconfirmed this limit when the issue was submitted to referendum in 1996. In 2008, the New York City Council voted to extend the two-term limit to three terms (without submitting the issue to the voters).[2] Legal challenges to the Council's action were rejected by Federal courts in January and April, 2009.[3] However, in 2010, There was yet another referendum, and it passed overwhelmingly.[4]

Is Term Limit Vote a Big Smack at Mayor?

<snip>

The whopping victory margin by YES voters on yesterday's term limits referendum could be read as a big "take-that" slap at Mayor Bloomberg and Speaker Christine Quinn and 28 of her complicit members.
Here's why: The proposition to restore the prior two-term limit passed by a margin of 73.9% (YES) to 11% (NO). The vote spread, based on unofficial results, was 484,139 for YES and 170,824 for NO -- a victory margin of 380,255 votes out of 654,963 cast.

Who wouldn't want to win by that margin? For instance, it's more than three times the 50,597 vote margin that Bloomberg beat Bill Thompson by in last year's mayoral election.

When NYC was forced by federal law to replace the mechanical lever machine Mayor Bloomberg wanted an ATM style machine that had a poor paper trail (a roll of paper with ink that faded rapidly). A few people lobbied very hard for a scanner type machine instead where the voter would mark the ballot directly and the original ballot would be retained in a lock box. For various reasons this type of technology is still inferior to the mechanical lever machine -- but superior to the ATM style one as far as having a paper trail goes.

Luckily we won and got the voting machines that used the scanner technology. It doesn't surprise me that the mayor wanted the machine with the far weaker paper trails.

He obviously has a dictatorial streak.
 
Last edited:
Thanks but pls note I didn't say "public information on the link between cancer and smoking" but rather just the cig pack labels. Why anyone would think people who are otherwise all too ready to smoke would go to buy a pack and suddenly ready the label and go "whoaaa! really? Never mind I don't want this" I can't imagine.

Consider it an effort to keep my posts to a few paragraphs vs a few hundred pages.

I agree its likely that most of the people who got persuaded by the facts to stop smoking or to not start smoking were probably persuaded by the articles that came out first in the various consumer magazines and newspapers.

And really I am shocked that anyone would think advertising isn't the bigger if not biggest factor for most if not dang near all products. Companies don't pay millions (billions?) planning, strategizing and purchasing ad space for nothing.

Indeed they don't. And its an awesome albeit troublesome thing to see it in action now. I see a lot of people swayed by the campaign that includes a powerful image of the mayor in a dress.

The other side are not innocents in this dispute. The sugar tax was not an unreasonable idea but it dared to get in the way of possibly reducing their profits.

Basically to stay at a reasonable weight most people eventually have to prepare most of their own food most of the time. (Or someone in their family does.) The idea that for a reasonable mark-up one could get healthy entrees and side dishes ready to go either in most restaurants (eat-in or take-out) or in a grocery store and stay at a reasonable weight and be able to get good results on your blood work just isn't realistic. One could argue that the food manufacturers aren't living up to their side of an assumed social contract.

That public conversation isn't really happening. If interested consumers were able to organize and put out a polished campaign of their own -- it would be interesting to see what they might come up with. I personally see most of the corporations involved in the current dispute as a bunch of 4 year olds. Most of the 4 year olds I have known went through a stage where they wanted to play with others, but the games had to be what they wanted to play and they had to be played by their rules 100% of the time.

? WHAT "health insurance benefit?" Far as I can see the days of big corp's providing free/cheap healthcare to employees is basically gone. Don't buy into the propaganda machine claiming otherwise.

And I'd still rather work for one, tyvm, despite other things I hate about them, for other reasons. Stability, for one.

Not me. The last large corporations I worked for were really horrible places to work. I don't miss it at all. What they had in common was the idea that all their employees should be availble 7 by 24 but of course only be paid for a 35 hour week. Late hours every day, cancelled vacations and weekend plans were common for many of their employees. It was like being a modern day serf.
 
Last edited:
Good chance the mayor isn't going to win the PR campaign on this issue.

At one point I was wondering if the fast food & soft drink industries and the NYC mayor & Board of Health would negotiate and end up compromising by not regulating soft drink serving sizes and allowing a sugar tax to go through. That would be an ideal solution, IMHO.

But now I'm guessing that the corporations are going to aim for a total strikeout.

Why compromise with evil incarnate? Government needs to go down in flames like the overreaching, nosy, intrusive busybodies they are.

I would like to cordially invite them to jump off a cliff and have sex with themselves on the way down.
 
Why compromise with evil incarnate? Government needs to go down in flames like the overreaching, nosy, intrusive busybodies they are.

I would like to cordially invite them to jump off a cliff and have sex with themselves on the way down.

That would be interesting to see.

FWIW, I think the corporations are evil also. I don't believe there are any good guys in this story.
 
Consider it an effort to keep my posts to a few paragraphs vs a few hundred pages.
lol - fair enough

Indeed they don't. And its an awesome albeit troublesome thing to see it in action now.
Yep. Always has been. Actually the machinery doesn't bother me half as much as how well it works on the mushy-brained masses. :(

Basically to stay at a reasonable weight most people eventually have to prepare most of their own food most of the time.
To some extent or other, yeah, but it can vary. Actually a lot of grocery stores have meals or parts of them they make and sell fresh - I'm not a fan, but my point is you could really minimize how much effort you put into making meals and still eat pretty healthy, though it would cost more.

One could argue that the food manufacturers aren't living up to their side of an assumed social contract.
That'd be a weak argument IMO. Food manufacturers, like most any other business, are looking for profits, period. If they can do well selling crappy unhealthy food that people are stupid/lazy enough to buy in great quantities, they have no obligation of any kind to wet-nurse them.

That's the govt's job. :o And I dislike gov't intervention as much as the next guy, but quite frankly we as a people are often incredibly dumb/lazy and only getting worse, so we need it.

I personally see most of the corporations involved in the current dispute as a bunch of 4 year olds. Most of the 4 year olds I have known went through a stage where they wanted to play with others, but the games had to be what they wanted to play and they had to be played by their rules 100% of the time.
To be honest, sometimes I see nearly all organizations and/or people that way. We're more like kids than we'd care to admit. eg like kids, we'll do as much stupid/bad stuff as we're allowed to get away with...small wonder then that as our society has gotten much more permissive, we've socially been on a corresponding downward spiral. IMO. And no that's not to imply "things were always better in the good ol days" either. Very general observation. (too general maybe - sorry!)

Not me. The last large corporations I worked for were really horrible places to work.
I've worked for a number of them and only one didn't fit that description, frankly. sigh
 
<snip>

Basically to stay at a reasonable weight most people eventually have to prepare most of their own food most of the time.

To some extent or other, yeah, but it can vary. Actually a lot of grocery stores have meals or parts of them they make and sell fresh - I'm not a fan, but my point is you could really minimize how much effort you put into making meals and still eat pretty healthy, though it would cost more.

It's hard to know how much sugar, salt and fat those foods actually have. Everyone loves those three things, it's almost a guaranteed way to make sure that most consumers will like the food -- so often a business will add a lot of those ingredients in. If they were to add a large amount of a different ingredient like say cumin or cardamom or really any other ingredient it would be more of a hit or miss proposition because other ingredients are not as universally well-liked.

I remember going to a community fair/fund raiser with some friends and being so proud of myself for getting a strawberry smoothie instead of ice cream. Then I happened to see the guy making the next batch of smoothies -- the amount of sugar he added was truly mind boggling. The ice cream probably would have been a healthier choice. That is just one example.

So ... unless I have reason to know exactly what is in the food ready to eat -- I usually don't buy it. I can't -- I end up having a weight problem. There have been studies and books written explaining how in particular salt and sugar trigger our appetites and some types of sugar prevent the hormones that suppress our appetite from kicking in. I know it's an issue for me which is why I have to make most of the food that I eat. I resent this, it's so time consuming -- but it's really the only way I can keep the weight off.


One could argue that the food manufacturers aren't living up to their side of an assumed social contract.

That'd be a weak argument IMO. Food manufacturers, like most any other business, are looking for profits, period. If they can do well selling crappy unhealthy food that people are stupid/lazy enough to buy in great quantities, they have no obligation of any kind to wet-nurse them.

You could make that argument in almost any area -- building codes for example. If someone is stupid enough to be willing to buy substandard buildng materials, why is the govt under any obligation to wet-nurse them? And if someone is willing to enter a building without making themselves aware of the quality of the materials used and how the building was constructed? Well, their tough luck if they fall through the floor -- why should they be mollycoddled?

It's probably in all of our interests for most of the members in our communities to be healthy vs not healthy.

It would not be a big stretch for govt to slightly expand their current food regulations and to decide to start handling sugar differently. The govt could decide to handle sugar like alcohol and require all foods with added sugar to be sold in stores designated for that purpose much like most alcohol is legally required to be sold in liquor stores and not allowed to be sold in other stores such as grocery stores. Or they may start requiring manufacturers to explicitly state how much of the sugar in food is added or only allow them to add up to a certain amount per serving in a processed food.

Fast-food corporations and soft-drink manufacturers are huge and wield a lot of political power, but so did the cigarette companies. Eventually, if the majority of society including govt and other large corporations decide that its in their interest to limit sugar -- sugar will be limited. I would bet on that -- I'm just not sure how long it will take.

Bloomberg is just the first politician trying to take on this issue. He won't be the last.

Hopefully the approach taken in the future will be more logical though.


ETA: Ideas of what is OK to sell to the public changes over time. Coca-cola use to have cocaine in it. The UK, and I think the US and France fought China partially over the right to be able to sell opium to China (The Opium Wars). Just a few examples.
 
Last edited:
It's hard to know how much sugar, salt and fat those foods actually have. Everyone loves those three things, it's almost a guaranteed way to make sure that most consumers will like the food -- so often a business will add a lot of those ingredients in. If they were to add a large amount of a different ingredient like say cumin or cardamom or really any other ingredient it would be more of a hit or miss proposition because other ingredients are not as universally well-liked.

I remember going to a community fair/fund raiser with some friends and being so proud of myself for getting a strawberry smoothie instead of ice cream. Then I happened to see the guy making the next batch of smoothies -- the amount of sugar he added was truly mind boggling. The ice cream probably would have been a healthier choice. That is just one example.

So ... unless I have reason to know exactly what is in the food ready to eat -- I usually don't buy it. I can't -- I end up having a weight problem. There have been studies and books written explaining how in particular salt and sugar trigger our appetites and some types of sugar prevent the hormones that suppress our appetite from kicking in. I know it's an issue for me which is why I have to make most of the food that I eat. I resent this, it's so time consuming -- but it's really the only way I can keep the weight off.




You could make that argument in almost any area -- building codes for example. If someone is stupid enough to be willing to buy substandard buildng materials, why is the govt under any obligation to wet-nurse them? And if someone is willing to enter a building without making themselves aware of the quality of the materials used and how the building was constructed? Well, their tough luck if they fall through the floor -- why should they be mollycoddled?

It's probably in all of our interests for most of the members in our communities to be healthy vs not healthy.

It would not be a big stretch for govt to slightly expand their current food regulations and to decide to start handling sugar differently. The govt could decide to handle sugar like alcohol and require all foods with added sugar to be sold in stores designated for that purpose much like most alcohol is legally required to be sold in liquor stores and not allowed to be sold in other stores such as grocery stores. Or they may start requiring manufacturers to explicitly state how much of the sugar in food is added or only allow them to add up to a certain amount per serving in a processed food.

Fast-food corporations and soft-drink manufacturers are huge and wield a lot of political power, but so did the cigarette companies. Eventually, if the majority of society including govt and other large corporations decide that its in their interest to limit sugar -- sugar will be limited. I would bet on that -- I'm just not sure how long it will take.

Bloomberg is just the first politician trying to take on this issue. He won't be the last.

Hopefully the approach taken in the future will be more logical though.


ETA: Ideas of what is OK to sell to the public changes over time. Coca-cola use to have cocaine in it. The UK, and I think the US and France fought China partially over the right to be able to sell opium to China (The Opium Wars). Just a few examples.

... *sigh*
 
... *sigh*

FWIW, I'd be happy with a compromise where food manufacturers were just required to say how much sugar they had added to their product.

Obviously in soda it's all added sugar -- but in other foods it's not that easy to tell.
 
Red Bull and Moxie.

Have to agree with you there about Red Bull. It tastes like vile candy.

Coca-Cola, on the other hand, is my demon rum. I love it. However, this thread has made me change how much I drink it. I mainly drink it in the car, either on long weekend drives or working late at night as an exterminator and using it to stay awake (don't like coffee, sorry.) In the past few weeks, I've taken to only drinking half the 20-oz. bottle and pouring the rest out. Otherwise, I will drink it later. I still get the taste (just enough to whet my beak) but don't go overboard like I would want to (drinking a 20-oz. bottle every night I'm out working, which is at least three nights a week.) I'm not saying it will turn me into Charles Atlas, but I have to admit, I'm feeling marginally better about myself.

Michael
 
If you are suggesting that marketers are stupid enough to work on higher brain centres you are going to be deeply disappointed.

There are people's who's full time job it is to work out how to sell you more drinks. [snip]

So in the end the options are to either accept that marketers are going to manage to sell more drink to you or use the law to counter their more effective tactics either through taxes or regulation.

[snip] Companies don't pay millions (billions?) planning, strategizing and purchasing ad space for nothing.[snip]

[snip]Fast-food corporations and soft-drink manufacturers are huge and wield a lot of political power, but so did the cigarette companies. Eventually, if the majority of society including govt and other large corporations decide that its in their interest to limit sugar -- sugar will be limited. I would bet on that -- I'm just not sure how long it will take.

Bloomberg is just the first politician trying to take on this issue. He won't be the last.[snip]

These are the essential issues. What are the costs and benefits of a "Nanny State" versus Nanny Corporations?

When research proves (and it does) that advertising increases profits, we have to wonder whether we actually have any choice in the matter when CocaCola tells us to buy CocaCola.

We hope that the state's mission is to uphold the constitution. We know what the corporations' mission is.
 
As of yesterday, the >16oz ban has now been enacted by the New York Board of Health (but does not go into effect yet).

I wonder how easy this is to get around. I were selling giant soft drinks in New York, I would simply offer "combo" deals (16oz - $1.80, 16oz plus an 8oz - $2.05, two 16oz - $2.19, same beverage only) equivalent to whatever sizes I used to sell, bumped up a bit in price for the cost of the extra cup.

(That wouldn't work with self-service soda fountains, but they're not so common in NYC, and anyone who buys a larger size when free refills are offered is an idiot anyway.)

The court drama of nanny state versus soft drink corporate juggernauts will be interesting to watch for the next few months, though. Too bad there's no side to root for. How large a tub of popcorn am I allowed to much on while spectating?

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
How much is 16oz in ml, anyway?

Rolfe.

12 ounces is apparently 0.355 L (mostly equivalent to a can.)
16oz = 0.47 L approx.
24oz = 0.7 L approx.

As a filthy European, I think the only thing that should be drunk in a single serving of quantities <= to 16oz is beer, to be honest.
 
Last edited:
The soft drink industry's astroturf campaign (can't remember what it's called, but it's something ridiculous like "New Yorkers for Choice!") had been playing propaganda ads before movies in New York. The last movie I saw, the audience saw straight through it and started booing. I was impressed, until I remembered I was seeing Moonrise Kingdom. Then I got mad about our hipster mayor telling me what to do.

I'm sure it will be relatively easy to get around, but there's a reason the industry is campaigning against it: they understand what drives consumer behavior to a much greater extent than consumers do.
 
12 ounces is apparently 0.355 L (mostly equivalent to a can.)
16oz = 0.47 L approx.
24oz = 0.7 L approx.

As a filthy European, I think the only thing that should be drunk in a single serving of quantities <= to 16oz is beer, to be honest.


Are you sure you have that symbol the right way round?

That's nearly half a litre. Why would anyone want a single serving of Coke more than that?

Rolfe.
 
That's nearly half a litre. Why would anyone want a single serving of Coke more than that?

Rolfe.

I fully get the point about personal responsability and nanny state, but I do agree with you that single-serving that size does look like overconsumption promoted by the industry/sellers under the guise of a "value for size" argument.

That's the outside impression, for what it is worth.
 
I can only imagine that in a hot climate, people are thirsty enough to drink that much. If the object of the exercise is fluid replacement, they should be drinking mostly water.

I really, really like Irn Bru, but I can't imagine drinking that much in a single serving. It doesn't make any sense.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom