Trayvon Martin, Vigilante Justice

[johnny karate]

If it is true that LE didn't know and/or investigate TM still being outside the 7/11, it could be huge.

How is it "huge"?

No way I would ever ignore something like this...

Yeah, kind of my point. Any chance to disparage Martin is gleefully jumped at, but when the conversation turns to Zimmerman, it's sober appeals to discuss only the facts of the case.

...but there really isn't anything to discuss about it.

I'll grant you that. It must be tough to meet that daily quota of posts in this thread you are required to make.

There was one member here who didn't know TM didn't leave the 7/11 when he walked out the door.

Uh huh... why is that important again?

 

[GWCarver]

Uh huh... why is that important again?

Have you ever had a job investigating anything or solving problems?

If you really want me to explain to you why his not immediately leaving the 7/11 is important, I will. But, you will have to admit you want to talk about it, first.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

As far as the MMA style witness statements.

Some of you are claiming that that witness perhaps had memory degradation.

I, on the other hand, thought that earlier in the thread we learned that that witness admitted to making false statements originally.

Which one is correct, there is a big difference.

Who is making the claim that witness perhaps had memory degradation. ? Quotes ?

On the matter of the broken nose.

Some of you are acting like a broken nose is binary. Broken or not broken. Isn't there a large range, from barely fractured to completely destroyed (layman's terms)?

I'd be surprised if Z's broken nose is (was) anywhere near the destroyed end of the range, since ,AFAIK, people that have a completely destroyed nose lose tons of blood and are in severe pain for quite some time.

So I wonder if many people who are saying that Z didn't have a broken nose are meaning that he didn't have a real broken nose, IE completely destroyed.

I see. So his nose was broken, but not really broken...

Perhaps those people could state that his nose was broken, but they do not find it to be a severe injury. They could probably even come up with that on their own, it's not so complicated a concept.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Is this the way you are going to be? It is your argument that DNA deposited by pulling the trigger is comparable to DNA deposited by a struggle over the gun. My counter argument is that the pressures involved in pulling the trigger is far less than what would be exerted in any struggle over the gun. The statistics from "trigger ID" show there is no guarantee that DNA would be left by the shooter though elements like wearing gloves or subsequently wiping down the weapon would affect those results. I would expect that a life or death struggle over a gun would be almost guaranteed to leave DNA behind especially where the gun is grabbed on surfaces that aren't intended for holding it. I don't have such statistics at hand but it is something that can be measured and probably has been.

Now, are you going to yield this point or at least make an effort to defend your argument? Or will you be running off to hide behind yet another goalpost?

Actually, I'm waiting for the claim that there was a struggle for the gun before worrying about whether or not to expect to find someones fingerprints on the gun.

As for your argument, as you admit, it appears to be based on your expectations, not any real evidence.

 

[johnny karate]

Have you ever had a job investigating anything or solving problems?

If you really want me to explain to you why his not immediately leaving the 7/11 is important, I will. But, you will have to admit you want to talk about it, first.

Wait, so now I have to meet some type of arbitrary threshold to satisfy you that I am worthy of a response?

You made a claim. I'm asking you to substantiate that claim. That's pretty much how it works around here.

If that's not good enough for you, feel free to leave that claim unsubstantiated.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

 

[epepke]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/justice/texas-abuser-killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

This father apparently punched a man in the head...to death. The man was apparently sexually assaulting his child.

Thanks. Now people in this thread will say that he only did this because he hates 12-year-olds in hoodies and is probably some sort of racist Spicdagowopbeaner with a German name.

 

[Noztradamus]

This information just came out today. It is new. If it is true that LE didn't know and/or investigate TM still being outside the 7/11, it could be huge.
~~~~

How is it "huge"?
~~~

May a little less "huge" as LE not investigating GZ car before his wife had the opportunity to remove and sanitize it.

 

[Amazer]

This information just came out today.

Unsubstantiated claims by a non-entity on an obscure website is not 'information'... it's just gossip.

It is new. If it is true that LE didn't know and/or investigate TM still being outside the 7/11, it could be huge.

Let me guess... If it came about that TM did by cigars of those 3, it would validate the suspicions that GZ had and thus totally justify all the irresponsible decisions GZ made that day?

No way I would ever ignore something like this, but there really isn't anything to discuss about it. We just have to wait and see what shows up in the next dump, or the hearing later this month.

Yeah, it's become abundantly clear that you would never ignore something like this. But you are correct that there really isn't anything to discuss. It happens when your source completely fails to substantiate his claims.

There was one member here who didn't know TM didn't leave the 7/11 when he walked out the door.

And?

 

[GWCarver]

May a little less "huge" as LE not investigating GZ car before his wife had the opportunity to remove and sanitize it.

What do you think was in his truck that would have had anything to do with the shooting?

I can't really think of any reason for him to leave his truck a good distance from where he lived. He was being taken to the police station without knowing if or when he would be released. It may have been the only vehicle they had for transportation. Nothing in the police reports I have seen so far suggest the police had any interest in his truck. I doubt seriously if there is any evidence his wife "sanitized" it.

 

[Noztradamus]

What do you think was in his truck that would have had anything to do with the shooting?
~~~~~
Nothing in the police reports I have seen so far suggest the police had any interest in his truck.
~~~~.

Yeah, that's the point. It could be huge. Remember your speculation about TM.

Quote:
It is new. If it is true that LE didn't know and/or investigate TM still being outside the 7/11, it could be huge.

Yet, despite GZ talking "fully and frankly" to officers on scene and later, they somehow gained the impression that GZ was a pedestrian who had been walking about his business, not a motorist who had got out of his truck to follow TM.

 

[johnny karate]

And?

I'm afraid you'll have to post your CV first. GWCarver needs to make sure you have the requisite background to understand the answer.

 

[Amazer]

I'm afraid you'll have to post your CV first. GWCarver needs to make sure you have the requisite background to understand the answer.

I guess I'll have to do without an answer then.

 

[Dan O.]

For those that are challenged when it comes to following the back links in this discussion forum, here is the chain of this particular argument: (As you can see, that argument of a struggle over the gun started this chain)

... And that is one of the reasons that I've been saying that if Zimmerman is going to play the 'fear for my life' card, it wouldn't be during the fight, but at the point at which Martin went for a gun... Zimmerman's gun. ...

Your argument falls apart because there is only one gun. A reasonable person holding a gun cannot be afraid that another person is going to shoot him with it. You want to claim there was a struggle for the gun? Trayvon had bare hands, his attempt to wrestle the gun away from George would necessarily leave DNA evidence on the gun.

So if GZ pulled the trigger with bare hands, his DNA evidence would be on the trigger, yes ?

Can you explain the difference between 8 pounds of force necessary to pull the trigger and a life and death struggle over a gun?

Maybe. Is there something in particular that you do not understand and want explained ?

It is your argument that DNA deposited by pulling the trigger is comparable to DNA deposited by a struggle over the gun. My counter argument is that the pressures involved in pulling the trigger is far less than what would be exerted in any struggle over the gun.

Actually, I'm waiting for the claim that there was a struggle for the gun before worrying about whether or not to expect to find someones fingerprints on the gun.

As for your argument, as you admit, it appears to be based on your expectations, not any real evidence.

It's really amazing that you dispute my claim without any supporting evidence of your own. I've been immersed in discussions involving touch DNA in another thread for the last couple of years. My expectations are backed by this prior experience.

 

[GWCarver]

Yeah, that's the point. It could be huge. Remember your speculation about TM.


Yet, despite GZ talking "fully and frankly" to officers on scene and later, they somehow gained the impression that GZ was a pedestrian who had been walking about his business, not a motorist who had got out of his truck to follow TM.

I said it could be huge if LE didn't know about or investigate TM being at the 7/11 for five minutes after he walked out the door. In an earlier post, I also indicated I was skeptical that was truly the case because the video of those five minutes was included in the evidence dump for some reason. (It is entirely possible LE knew TM was there after he left, included the tape in discovery, and hoped no one would notice.) But, if they indeed didn't look into it, the defense will do so, or has already, and if there is anything to it that involves drugs, the capias will look even more silly than it does now, and the Crump propaganda is blown in big headlines. It all depends on what the three stooges have to say about it.

I don't have any idea how the police could have thought he was just a pedestrian because he was talking to non emergency response at the time he got out of his truck. His statements would have to have included his getting out of the truck, as well.

 

[Noztradamus]

~~~~~
I don't have any idea how the police could have thought he was just a pedestrian because he was talking to non emergency response at the time he got out of his truck. His statements would have to have included his getting out of the truck, as well.

"Penny in the air....."

 

[crimresearch]

Yeah, that's the point. It could be huge. Remember your speculation about TM.


Yet, despite GZ talking "fully and frankly" to officers on scene and later, they somehow gained the impression that GZ was a pedestrian who had been walking about his business, not a motorist who had got out of his truck to follow TM.

Really?

"He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department."

Zimmerman:

Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

 

[Noztradamus]

Really?

As has been pointed out many times, the Non Emergency operator is not police.

 

[crimresearch]

As has been pointed out many times, the Non Emergency operator is not police.

That's fantastic.

Bye-bye.

 

[GWCarver]

Unsubstantiated claims by a non-entity on an obscure website is not 'information'... it's just gossip.

First, I put a disclaimer up at the beginning of my post advising those who were not interested in the Treehouse to skip it.

The Treehouse was the first source in the world, to my knowledge, that gave Diwataman's youtube analysis of the 7/11 tapes the attention it deserved. It was a jaw dropping scoop. The MSM hasn't picked it up, and won't until forced or embarrassed into doing so. They aren't going to show a video of TM acting suspicious less than an hour before he was killed unless they have to.

Maybe the interviews of the three stooges will be made public at the next discovery dump. We need to know if TM talked to any of them on his cell phone or if it was just a chance encounter. But the video is too compelling to simply ignore for those who are seeking the truth, IMO.

Even at the time public opinion was trending towards Zimmerman, O'Mara was telling everyone who would listen not to make up their minds until they had seen all of the evidence. I think he's got something. Maybe this is it, maybe TM just wanted a cigar. We'll find out soon.

 

[johnny karate]

The Treehouse was the first source in the world, to my knowledge, that gave Diwataman's youtube analysis of the 7/11 tapes the attention it deserved. It was a jaw dropping scoop. The MSM hasn't picked it up, and won't until forced or embarrassed into doing so. They aren't going to show a video of TM acting suspicious less than an hour before he was killed unless they have to.

I think you may be understating the significance of this find. "Jaw-dropping" hardly does it justice. It will most likely forever change the legal system and journalism in immeasurable ways. What has been done here is nothing short of miraculous, and may just prove to be the Rosetta Stone for humanity's deeper understanding of itself, the universe, and the very nature of existence.